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SCENARIO: Iraq Triumphs Over Coalition Forces

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  • SCENARIO: Iraq Triumphs Over Coalition Forces

    Everyone:

    Now I'm not talking strictly in the military sense — from what I've gleaned, the Coalition forces can pretty much do what they want with the Iraqi military. I'm talking about the fanatical Saddam Hussein backers, chemical/biological weapons and urban warfare, the triumverate that would make life miserable for the Coalition.

    What happens if the worst-case scenario comes to pass — namely, the use of chemical and biological weapons on the Coalition, and ensuing urban fighting with Saddam's fanatics? Would the sheer bloodshed make the democratic populations of the Coalition nations blanch and force a withdrawal from the battlefield? Would George W. Bush, et al., be forced by their own people to settle for a cease-fire and/or peace treaty and a humiliating withdrawal from Iraq?

    How would an Iraqi "victory" in this sense affect it? Would Iraq become more assertive again once it was done rebuilding? Would Saddam's rule get even harsher?

    How would the West look in the eyes of the Middle East (especially the Coalition members, but also the West in general ... remember, the fanatics don't necessarily care where you live in the West)? How would the United Nations be affected?

    Or is all of this moot, and we will see something along the lines of Berlin at the end of World War II — heavy urban fighting with the last, dying fanatics of a dead regime going down and taking as many people as they can to hell with them?

    ***

    I shall address the "loser" option, as I don't think it will come to pass (thus, it should be "safer" to predict):

    Coalition loses: In this case, I predict that George W. Bush will get his buttocks kicked in during the next presidential election, thus ending his presidency on the same note as his father: a one-term president, except he didn't win in the Persian Gulf like his father, George Herbert Walker Bush, did. I suspect a Democrat would win the presidency, but that's not a guarantee, either, as their presidential field is packed with wannabes. It's possible another GOP contender will win in the primaries — John McCain, perhaps? Or would Colin Powell say the hell with it and run? (These two men, obviously, are my favorites ...)

    On the diplomatic front, I think that such an outcome would be disastrous for U.S. policy. We would lose allies, and other nations would think thrice before joining in any adventure with us, particularly if they see no threat to their own security on the global horizon. We would still retain our seat on the U.N. Security Council, and our 25 percent of its total funding might keep U.N. officials themselves quiet, but not actual U.N. members, who would likely take every opportunity to rub our faces in the defeat.

    Economically, the economy would likely stay the same or get slightly worse. I'm no economist, but I think that the markets might stabilize if some sort of predictable future were secured, even if it's one where the Coalition doesn't win in Iraq. Both the GOP and Democrats will claim credit for this stabilization, of course. The wild card, of course, is the halving of Bush's proposed tax cut so far, the markets don't seem to like the prospect of losing out on tax-free dividends. But taxpayers might not mind having smaller deficits as a result ...

    Militarily, I think our men and women in the armed forces will suffer morale problems. Plus we would have a surge in the use of the Veterans Affairs healthcare system, so that would mean extra funding would be necessary to properly handle the influx over the years. Whether Congress appropriates the funds is unknown, but judging from past track records, it wouldn't be likely.

    In the Middle East, democracy will be as dead as a doornail. Even its ghost will be chased out of the region, and I expect we would see more and more militarized, nationalistic or theocratic governments either coming to power, or staying in power (the latter more likely). Afghanistan might be the exception to that trend, knowing all-too-well what life is like under strict theocracies.

    Oh, and Iran will get nuclear weapons, which might mean Israel will go after them, which in turn sets off a chain of events that could lead to the utter devastation of the Middle East if moderating influences aren't brought to bear.

    Gatekeeper (who's out of ideas at this time of the morning to address the possible ramifications of a Coalition victory)
    "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

    "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius

  • #2
    What amused me in recent days was TV pictures of Iraqis being given food and water rations by British troops. One of the soldiers explained that the Iraqis were actually asking for cigarettes. I think that if they had dropped tons of cigarettes on Iraqi cities instead of leaflets (are Iraqis short of toilet paper - not any more!) the popular uprising and welcoming of coalition troops that the politicians need would have happened.

    Perhaps they are saving this as a coalition weapon of last resort?
    Never give an AI an even break.

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    • #3
      Would the sheer bloodshed make the democratic populations of the Coalition nations blanch and force a withdrawal from the battlefield?
      In a word; yes. Citizens of democratic countries don't like seeing dead bodies.
      Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.

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      • #4
        or letting coalition troops pass bridges on euphrates then blow them and the ensuing mellee with troops already in mesopotamia. wishful thinking

        Comment


        • #5
          Bush would definitely be out in 2004. I doubt he would lose to a primary contender; no sitting president has been denied renomination by his party since Franklin Pierce in 1856. But given that the economy is likely to be in the crapper, too (win or lose; the IMF today predicted that a war that didn't end quickly would result in worldwide recession, regardless of the war's outcome), even one of the lame-o Dems could probably beat him. He could, of course, pull an LBJ, see the writing on the wall, and not run.

          The wider repercussions would to a great extent be determined by the willingness of the next president to demonize what happened as "Bush's War." A concerted diplomatic effort that stressed that the war was actually out of keeping with American values, attitudes, and political behavior since WWII -- that it was an aberration, and that the Aberrant in Chief has been sent packing -- would heal a lot of wounds in places other than the Middle East. In the Middle East, much much more would be needed; I suspect the US playing midwife at the birth of a Palestinian State would not even do the job completely, though it would be a good start.
          "I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin

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          • #6
            I doubt he would lose to a primary contender; no sitting president has been denied renomination by his party since Franklin Pierce in 1856.
            hey it's Bush 2 we're talking here. anything is possible
            Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
            Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
            giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog

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            • #7
              I know it is off topic, but I don't think the US will lose. Currently, the resistance exists because the USUK forces are restraining their firepower, to avoid too much civilian losses, and too much bad PR both in their country and in the Arabic world.
              Should things turn ugly as you depict, the USUK will go full force, and Baghdad / Kirkuk / Basra / Whatever will become other Groznyis, where Iraqi fighters won't have cover to fight the USUK troops.

              That would be atrocious, but I'm sure the Bushies would rather massacre the Iraqis than losing the war.
              "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
              "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
              "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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              • #8
                There is no way the US/UK can withdraw without taking out Saddam. We will escalate the tolerance for Iraqi casualties and do whatever it takes to take Saddam out. We're in this thing now, we can't back out. Going in was bad for US relations around the world, we have too much at stake, failure is not an option.

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                • #9
                  Unfortunately, I fear that Frogman may be right and the US may have to step up the firepower in urban areas in order to win militarily. THis will make the political win harder as the civilian casualties increase
                  You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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                  • #10
                    The political win seems to have disappeared, at least at world level. What is left is whether the US can say "do it our way or we kick your ass" or whether other countries will ignore US wishes. A US military win in Iraq asserts US power, a defeat will encourage other countries to do their own thing.

                    What is certain is that the US administration cannot easily back down and shows no sign of wishing to do so. The UK will probably stick it out, particularly if UK forces remain mostly in the south and the situation in that area stabilises.
                    Never give an AI an even break.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Spiffor
                      Should things turn ugly as you depict, the USUK will go full force, and Baghdad / Kirkuk / Basra / Whatever will become other Groznyis, where Iraqi fighters won't have cover to fight the USUK troops.
                      Not going full force? Iraqi cities have been being pounded repeatedly by missiles and bombs. There has been more of that junk than Gulf War I already.

                      Unless by full force you mean "indiscriminate," i.e., not making a distinction between civil and military targets. In this case, Bush, Blair and company will definitely become war criminals and should be tried.
                      (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                      (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                      (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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                      • #12
                        So far we have avoided infrastructure targets that we'd rather not have to rebuild, like power plants which were targeted in GW1. We won't target civilians, but the loss of power would be a hardship for them.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Urban Ranger


                          Not going full force? Iraqi cities have been being pounded repeatedly by missiles and bombs. There has been more of that junk than Gulf War I already.

                          Unless by full force you mean "indiscriminate," i.e., not making a distinction between civil and military targets. In this case, Bush, Blair and company will definitely become war criminals and should be tried.
                          In the first instance, you're wrong. Far more ordnance was put in and around Baghdad, and we dropped bridges all up and down the supply route from Baghdad to Kuwait. The Iraqis had built up and concentrated a lot more supply and material, plus we wanted to take out airfields and military aircraft and obvious weapons production facilities such as the "Baby Milk Plant." We flew about five times the number of sorties over Baghdad on a daily basis than we are flying now.

                          Here's an ugly fact for all to remember: If the hardcore elements of the Iraqi regime pull back into residential areas and try to blend in with the population to continue the fight, those former "civilian" areas become military targets. A fedayin or SRG fighting out of uniform doesn't become a civilian. Minimizing collateral damage is a goal, but not a positive obligation, i.e. we're not obligated to get our people killed on the ground getting armed resistance out of civilian areas.

                          Ultimately, a lot of armed civilians will rebel against the regime, they just have to be sure that the balance has tipped decisively against Saddam and his murdering *******s. The Saddamites' treatment of mild dissidents is well known, and so is their treatment of rebels 12 years ago. Fear of retribution still dominates Iraqis, just as it did for an eight year murderous war against Iran, when hundreds of thousands of Iraqi conscripts' lives were expended as so much cannon fodder. They didn't do that out of love for the Hussein regime, or patriotism, any more than they sat and took what the coalition did last time out of love for the Hussein regime or patriotism. They did it, and many will resist us until the relative last minute, because for most people, there are far worse things than a high probability of one's own death.
                          When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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                          • #14
                            Bush would never ever ever pull out, it would be certain politcal death. He'll stick this thing through no matter the consequences.

                            Afghanistan might be the exception to that trend, knowing all-too-well what life is like under strict theocracies.
                            A democratic city state surronded by warlords controlling their own little fiefdoms is not a democracy. Afghanistan most assuredly does not have anything resembling a democracy.
                            When one is someone, why should one want to be something?
                            ~Gustave Flaubert

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                            • #15
                              The US admin. went in expecting tyhe regime to fall like a house of cards. The whole "shock and awe" campaign failed oshock or awe the people we wanted to affect.

                              I don'tt hink that the use of WMD on coolition forces is part of the "worst case scenerio" politically. if they were used, by default we know Saddam is guilty of not disarming. US forcs can protect thmselves just fine, and civilian deaths would be blamed on Saddam. A long insurgency campaign in Iraq and no use of WMD would be a bigger blow to the admin. it would rbing into question the whole enterprise (we do this to disarm..) and also bring into question whay there would be an insurgency if Iraqis wanted to be "liberated" by the US.

                              The worst that happens politically is Bush and his bunch are utterly discredited as are their foreign policy ideas (which i would love to see honestly), Blair loses his job, Chirac and schroeder get a big boost in Europe (not that good an outcome) and perhaps the UN gets back some of its lost legitimacy, since one could claim that the US and UK jumped the gun and abused the system for their own gains. The bad part is that terrorism and anti-US and UK sentiment in the ME rise significantly, giving Al qaeda a huge push.
                              If you don't like reality, change it! me
                              "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                              "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                              "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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