Revisionism and "Holocaust Denial"

[Sava]

I'm not arguing the moral validity of Communism. I'm not a Communist... I'm simply pointing out how wrong and offensive your assertion was. And I also pointed out that Stalinism isn't Communism.

Are you so concerned with personally attacking "the left"?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Laws of the internet. Number 17.

Whenever the subject of the Holocaust comes up, right-wingers will make desperate attempts to threadjack it into an anti-Communism thread.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel
actually, GePap, much of the death caused by Stalin was intentional.Mao was just stoopid.

Well, there is significant disagreement on what stalin's intentions for the Kulaks in geenral, Ukranians as well, whether he wanted to kill them, or break them, not caring how many died (which is the difference). As for Stalin's purges, how many people did they kill?

JohnT: I am not a communist, though i am a socialist, and I have no problem saying that failed economic policy lead to millions of deaths- its a fact.

There is still a different level of malignancy between the aims of the Nazi's and those of even someone as terrible as Stalin. Stalin killed for an aim (total power), the Nazis aimed to kill, for their aim was "purification and annahilation".

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Of course they didn't recover 6 million bodies, many were cremated to ash! Didn't the allies recover most of the Nazi's documents though? AFAIK the estimates of the total number killed in the camps was based on the murderers' actual documentation, which they had failed to destroy before the war's end. Furthermore, during the Nuremberg trials the Nazis defendants didn't refute the number of victims, but instead accepted the numbers as essentially accurate.

There's no reason for documentary evidence to provide a reasonable estimate.

There was a large Jewish population in Germany and Eastern Europe prior to 1939. Where did they go?

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Frogger


There's no reason for documentary evidence to provide a reasonable estimate.

There was a large Jewish population in Germany and Eastern Europe prior to 1939. Where did they go?

To Palestine because there's nothing they enjoy more than stealing Palestinian land. Of course.

[MrFun]

There is no question that the Holocaust happened. What happened to the millions of Jews? What happened to the thousands of homosexuals? What happened to the thousands of physically/mentally disabled? What happened to the political dissidents?


As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as respectable debate on whether or not the Holocaust actually happened.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior

To Palestine because there's nothing they enjoy more than stealing Palestinian land. Of course.

You're lucky you're Jewish. Otherwise Ming would warn you against making such anti-Semitic comments.

[S. Kroeze]

Dear Orange,

I hope you still remember me. A long time ago we had a discussion about the Russian/Bolshevik Revolution.

I didn't have the time to read this thread. Yet I felt obliged to make a contribution to it.

There is no discussion among professional historians whether the Holocaust occurred or not. There is some discussion about the amount of its victims. But the amount of 6 million Jewish victims is well-estalished, though the actual amount might have been slightly less, about 5.7 million which is still an appalling amount.
For some reason the other Holocaust victims, Gipsies, Poles, Russians, other Slavs, homosexuals and the mentally disabled -of which a comparable amount of people were killed, several millions at least- are systematically neglected.

As any historical bibliography will tell you the most comprehensive study is by R.Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews (3 vols., rev. 1983).
Yet that same Hilberg will admit that the Holocaust was used to legitimize the creation of Israel, the support it received from the USA after 1967 and the systematic oppression of the native population of Palestine.

Here is a small quote:

"Raoul Hilberg interviews

[Note: there are four interviews in this section]

Raul Hilberg, author of the classic THE DESTRUCTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWS, is the world's leading authority on the Nazi holocaust. A Brazilian journalist, Carlos Haag, questioned him about my new book. Below is Hilberg's reply:

Today he is rather unpopular and his book will certainly not become a best seller, but what it says is basically true even though incomplete. It is more a journalistic account than an in depth study on the topic, which would need to be much longer. To say that the Holocaust has been used in order to secure Palestine for the Jews is nothing new and we know how important it was in the creation of Israel. Nevertheless it will be a bitter yet necessary reminder to the community. He is also right when he argues that nobody talked about this topic in the USA: in 1968 a well known local encyclopedia asked me to write an article on the Holocaust and they only wanted me to talk about Dachau and Buchenwald because they were not interested in Auschwitz; these topics were censored. I agree with him that people overestimate the number of survivors and that the concept itself is ill-defined - it includes not only the victims of the camps - and it is true that there an exaggerated number of compensation requests are made. There is something radically wrong in this exploitation because it is an issue that should not be used to make money and I must confess that I found the whole affair with the Swiss banks disturbing. The Jewish-American community is very prosperous and there is no reason for them to ask the Swiss for money. That seems obscene to me."

VALOR (Brazil), 4 August 2000

source: http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id48.htm

The 'he' mentioned in this interview is Norman Finkelstein, who wrote a book 'The Holocaust Industry', a most important study.
It is an analysis of the relation between Zionism, Israel and the policy of the USA and their use of the Holocaust for political goals.

Norman Finkelstein is the son of two survivors of the concentration camps, I believe Auschwitz. As you can imagine he is anathema to the powerful Zionist lobby. I can recommend to visit his website.

Another important study about the same subject matter was written by Peter Novick: 'Holocaust in American life'.
Here is part of a review about it:

"Novick appears to be correct in linking the transformed place of the Holocaust in American thought to the 1967 Six-Day War, followed by the 1973 Yom Kippur War. But to understand this coincidence of political events, it is vital to note the fundamental political change 1967 marked within the state of Israel. With massive US military aid, Israel invaded Egypt, Syria and Jordan, occupying the West Bank of the Jordan River, the Golan Heights and the Gaza Strip. Zionism emerged as a major force of aggression and expansionism. Israel's socialistic pretensions were swept away as the Begin government pursued a policy of expansionism in the region. Just at the point where over a million Palestinians were brought under a military dictatorship, American policymakers embraced the Holocaust, carefully edited of course, institutionalizing it and using it to mobilize public opinion behind Israel. It provided the moral cover for US aims. This became particularly critical after 1973 when public criticism of Zionist expansionism began to escalate".

When I can help you with more recommended reading, please send me an e-mail!

Sincerely,

S.Kroeze

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Sava
Nothing to post online, I've been looking to confirm it myself. I heard this stuff on the radio. The whole conspiracy thing was something Gibson's father spoke of, not Mel. But Mel is doing a movie that portrays Jews as responsible for Jesus' crucifiction.

Yeah, I think there's something in the Bible about the priests whipping the crowds to a frenzy, telling Pilate to release Barabbas instead of Jesus. But no, they can't be 'responsible' because it was really a Roman plot to make the Jews look responsible, so that 2000 years later some guy with a funny mustache would convince his nation to kill off 6 million Jews lose the paperwork on a few million or so Jews, ummm, errr, who must have died somewhere else, uhhh, by accident.

The Jews were responsible, but there isn't one word of scripture that says they are to be persecuted for it. The gospels were written, first and foremost, to convert and teach the Jews. It wasn't until a century later when a widespread Jewish rebellion brought disfavor that Christian doctrine started to lean to the antisemitic side to keep from being smeared with the same brush-stroke.

[nationalist]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Laws of the internet. Number 17.

Whenever the subject of the Holocaust comes up, right-wingers will make desperate attempts to threadjack it into an anti-Communism thread.

That's not exactly it. I think that what the Nazis did was terrible and I admit it. You seem to be irritated that someone even mentioned Stalin. It seems logical that other holocausts would come up in a discussion about the Holocaust. Why so irritated?

[Agathon]

Denying the holocaust is silly, but isn't labelling as a holocaust denier anyone who disputes the numbers or anyone who suggests that it perhaps wasn't the worst atrocity perpetrated upon humanity rather silly as well?

[nationalist]

I don't think that the Holocaust was the worst atrocity. I think that it was the second worst. The worst attrocity was the atrocity carried out by the government of Stalin. Somewhere between 2 and 4 times as many people died in Stalin's regime than in Hitler's. However, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM DENYING THAT THE NAZI HOLOCAUST WAS EVIL!!!!!!

[Sava]

Originally posted by nationalist
I don't think that the Holocaust was the worst atrocity. I think that it was the second worst. The worst attrocity was the atrocity carried out by the government of Stalin. Somewhere between 2 and 4 times as many people died in Stalin's regime than in Hitler's. However, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM DENYING THAT THE NAZI HOLOCAUST WAS EVIL!!!!!!

Yeah, I'd much rather get shot in the head with a .357 magnum than a .44 magnum.

[Sava]

The Jews were responsible, but there isn't one word of scripture that says they are to be persecuted for it. The gospels were written, first and foremost, to convert and teach the Jews. It wasn't until a century later when a widespread Jewish rebellion brought disfavor that Christian doctrine started to lean to the antisemitic side to keep from being smeared with the same brush-stroke.

I didn't really understand what the first part of your post was about. But seriously, I don't really care. If it even happened at all... I don't think that labeling the Jews as responsible does anything. It's just an attempt to justify bigotry.

[orange]

Wow, I've gotta stop posting controversial stuff if I'm not going to be around all day. 3 tests in one day, fingers are sore as ****.

I don't know if some of you missed it, but I never said I agree with this guy. I just found it intriguing that he devotes his life to such idiocy. A passage or two from the site sounded at least partially defendable, and I decided to post a thread seeing as how it's a very controversial topic.

Once again, I am in no way denying or excusing the holocaust. Thanks all

:sigh: This place is getting too fast paced for me...