Revisionism and "Holocaust Denial"

[nationalist]

Originally posted by Azazel
there were relatively few prisoners of conscience in the USSR post-Stalin. they existed, but comparing this to Stalin, or Mao, or Hitler, is silly.

Even so, I'm wondering why there isn't more mention made about the tens of millions of deaths under Stalin. Aren't they just as terrible as the Nazi deaths? Even if the U.S.S.R. wasn't all that bad after Stalin died, there should still be mention made of his victims. These people are simply ignored. Why?

[Sava]

more mention? I don't know, it's pretty much common knowledge. And in America, it's different because there are thousands and thousands of holocaust survirors that live or have lived here. There aren't many survivors of the Gulags and Stalin's purges that live here.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Are you kidding? It's impossible to go on any forum without people constantly spouting off about Stalin.

[nationalist]

I'm not talking about common knowledge of people on the forums, I'm talking about common knowledge of people on the streets. I doubt that most people even know what the Gulags were, let alonehow many people died in them. However, the first thing that people associate with Nazi is "Holocaust" The only movie that I know of about the Soviets in WW2 is "Enemy at the Gates", and that made the Soviets look like heroes. Didn't mention that the entirety of their society was based on slave labor. Why not make a "Pianist" about the Gulags? I'm sure that there are enough tragic human interest stories involved to create a movie. I'm reading a novel about the Gulags right now.

[nationalist]

Originally posted by Sava
more mention? I don't know, it's pretty much There aren't many survivors of the Gulags and Stalin's purges that live here.

However, there are many Americans of Ukrainian descent, amongst others, who have had families touched by the Stalinistic terror. I'm sure that they would like to make people more aware of what happened.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by nationalist
I'm not talking about common knowledge of people on the forums, I'm talking about common knowledge of people on the streets. I doubt that most people even know what the Gulags were, let alonehow many people died in them. However, the first thing that people associate with Nazi is "Holocaust" The only movie that I know of about the Soviets in WW2 is "Enemy at the Gates", and that made the Soviets look like heroes. Didn't mention that the entirety of their society was based on slave labor. Why not make a "Pianist" about the Gulags? I'm sure that there are enough tragic human interest stories involved to create a movie. I'm reading a novel about the Gulags right now.

I think you're misjudging humanity, or just hang out with morons.

[nationalist]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp

I think you're misjudging humanity, or just hang out with morons.

I think you are the one misjudging humanity. You'd be very surprised at the level of historical ignorance most Americans have.

[Sava]

Perhaps its different for me because my relatives of that generation escaped the Nazis and the Stalinists. I was taught about the evils of both. I often make the mistake of thinking that people weren't privilaged enough to be educated about history.

On a side note:
And its quite insulting to hear others generalizing people of certain political beliefs as being part of the same group of people that butchered millions. And as having been labeled a "leftist", among other things, it's very insulting to hear that "the Left" was responsible for such death. I doubt these very same people who make such assertions had relatives that were the victims of both Holocausts.

[nationalist]

Originally posted by Sava

And its quite insulting to hear others generalizing people of certain political beliefs as being part of the same group of people that butchered millions. And as having been labeled a "leftist", among other things, it's very insulting to hear that "the Left" was responsible for such death. I doubt these very same people who make such assertions had relatives that were the victims of both Holocausts.

That same thing can be said for those who associate Nazi atrocities with the "Right"

[dudemanjack]

I don't have time to read this so I'll just post this site. Someone probably already beat me to it.

http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Sava
And its quite insulting to hear others generalizing people of certain political beliefs as being part of the same group of people that butchered millions. And as having been labeled a "leftist", among other things, it's very insulting to hear that "the Left" was responsible for such death. I doubt these very same people who make such assertions had relatives that were the victims of both Holocausts.

Oh, puh-leeze! Sava, you generalize about people all the freakin' damn time, so spare us the whining.

[GePap]

There is a differences between the deaths caused by the Soviets and those caused by the nazi's.

The difference is aim and intent. A significant portion of the deaths form Communism came from the after effects of failed economic policies (very true for someone like Mao). The one category that comes to mind are political prisoners- this is where people go comparing Gulags to Extermination camps, but the point of the GUlags was slave labor and political punishment: the aim of th death camps was death. Now, you may say : who cares, millions died either way" but the fact is that there is a difference. Once Stalin or mao were gone, the systems they ruled became less radical and deadly. Would the Nazi's have moderated their aim of wipping out millions without Hitler? People seem to forget the plans the Nazis had for the lands of the east. The Nazi's had figured that once the Soviet unions was conquered, at least 30 million slavs were expected to be starved to death, to make way for the Germans. If the Nazis killed less people than the Soviets, it is only because they did not have the chance due to the defeat of their aggression.

[Sava]

That same thing can be said for those who associate Nazi atrocities with the "Right"

Such people are equally as mistaken and insulting.

Oh, puh-leeze! Sava, you generalize about people all the freakin' damn time, so spare us the whining.

I don't recall blaming conservatives, Republicans, or anyone else I disagreed with for the Nazi war crimes. And even if I did utter such stupidity, do two wrongs make a right?

There's a very big difference between my own ignorant generalizations and accusing "the Right" or "the Left" of being responsible for a murderous regime's war crimes.

I'm just asking you to not attack people and make generalizations. I had relatives killed by the Stalinists after the United States and Britain sold Yugoslavia out. It's wrong and offensive to say "the Left" was responsible for Stalin's crimes.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by GePap
There is a differences between the deaths caused by the Soviets and those caused by the nazi's.

The difference is aim and intent. A significant portion of the deaths form Communism came from the after effects of failed economic policies (very true for someone like Mao).

You know, I don't really follow these political/economic threads all that much, so I don't know your political persuasion. But arguing for the moral validity of Communism over Nazism by saying that the deaths caused by Communism were caused by an inherent flaw in the ideology is likely not going to win you much support from the likes of Che and Sava, and would be especially ironic if you consider yourself a Communist. But that would be too much to hope for.

If so, it might make my signature. Thanks!

[Az]

actually, GePap, much of the death caused by Stalin was intentional.Mao was just stoopid.