A suggestion for some people out there...

[Zevico]

Every day I go onto apolyton, mostly to lurk on the Civ 2 boards and look longingly at the Civ 3 ones. I occasionally happen upon the Off Topic boards as well; and I look at the topics and what do I see?
"Israeli Military murders American"
And it strikes me as to how accepting people are of the media; do they bother attempting to get an Israeli point of view? No. They merely read an article from the BBC or Guardian and believe it to be the Gospel truth or whatever that saying is. I know that some times the Israeli soldiers do bad things, but the difference is they get PROSECUTED for it and they were NOT ORDERED TO DO SO. No commander said "Drive into her". The soldier did it himself. So has the IDF done this, or one soldier? (I'm not going to presume anything about whether he did it on purpose, I don't know about that). Check the facts better, mmk?

[Dis]

yep, I agree completely.

not sure if this thread will survive though

[Urban Ranger]

Re: A suggestion for some people out there...

Originally posted by Zevico
I know that some times the Israeli soldiers do bad things, but the difference is they get PROSECUTED for it and they were NOT ORDERED TO DO SO. No commander said "Drive into her". The soldier did it himself. So has the IDF done this, or one soldier? (I'm not going to presume anything about whether he did it on purpose, I don't know about that). Check the facts better, mmk?

The killing of Rachel Corrie is just the tip of an iceberg. It is not an isolated incident. Perhaps she's the first Usian that got murdered, but definitely not the first person. Lots of Palestanians got blown away. I think the numbers paint a clear picture.

[Dis]

Did you ever think they were provoked? Israelis are baited just like American police are.

Note: That is no excuse for murder! I do expect all of them to be prosecuted and charged with murder and/or manslaughter. But you can't go around provoking people who have guns and/or bulldozers. You are likely to piss them off, and they will kill you!

[Jon Shafer]

Right or wring, this is why most people don't jump in front of bulldozers.

[Sikander]

Re: Re: A suggestion for some people out there...

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


The killing of Rachel Corrie is just the tip of an iceberg. It is not an isolated incident. Perhaps she's the first Usian that got murdered, but definitely not the first person.

Actually the Palestinians have murdered a number of Americans during the recent intifada. Rachel is the first American that I know of that has been killed intentionally or unintentionally by the Israelis during this time. It's too bad she was so stupid / committed to her cause, but she was an adult and made her choice.

[Urban Ranger]

Dissident,

Provoked in what sense? First of all, they are on Occupied Territory. The IDF shouldn't be there. The Israeli settlers shouldn't be there. Secondly, I can just easily say that the Pals are merely retaliating Israeli provocations. It's a long chain, you can't point to an incident and say, "these other guys caused it."


Sikander,

"Actually the Palestinians have murdered a number of Americans during the recent intifada. Rachel is the first American that I know of that has been killed intentionally or unintentionally by the Israelis during this time."

Interesting bias in your position. Pals murdered Usians, but not necessarily the Israelis. Why are you so sure that the Pals murdered the Usians, instead of being them in the wrong place at the wrong time? Just using a defense for Israel a lot of people pulled.

[The Mad Monk]

When Usians get blown to bits in a bus bombing, it's a pretty damn clear case of murder.

[Urban Ranger]

Ah, they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, then.

[Paul Hanson]

What on earth are Usians?

[Urban Ranger]

Citizens of the United States.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Sikander,

"Actually the Palestinians have murdered a number of Americans during the recent intifada. Rachel is the first American that I know of that has been killed intentionally or unintentionally by the Israelis during this time."

Interesting bias in your position. Pals murdered Usians, but not necessarily the Israelis. Why are you so sure that the Pals murdered the Usians, instead of being them in the wrong place at the wrong time? Just using a defense for Israel a lot of people pulled.

Setting off a bomb on a crowded bus is prima facia evidence of murder, what other outcome could there be? Whether or not you know the nationality of the people involved doesn't matter, it is murder.

There is very little convincing evidence that I have seen that the girl killed in the bulldozer incident was murdered by anyone. We shall see how it plays out, but in any event I doubt that she was targeted by the bulldozer driver on account of her nationality, just as the Americans murdered by the Palestinians were most likely killed on the basis of their religion or the perception by the bomber that they were Israelis.

[muxec]

The number of personal insults at apolyton is growing. I created the cultural thread to stop this. Please try to understand before cussing.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Ah, they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, then.

I'd call being in front of a moving bulldozer being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So you're saying, "It's not the Palestinian's fault they killed Americans, they were only trying to kill Israelis."

[Zevico]

EDIT: This is a response to UR's statement (off topic).

UR, while I know that many palestinians were killed, I would like to point out that some of these palestinians were terrorists. In fact, I'd wager that a substantial amount were. However, the palestinians who were not involved in fighting were killed accidentally for the most part (that is, it was not the intention, and never was, of the IDF to kill Palestinian civilians); and in cases where the killings were not unintentional, the soldiers responsible would be prosecuted.

Provoked in what sense? First of all, they are on Occupied Territory. The IDF shouldn't be there. The Israeli settlers shouldn't be there. Secondly, I can just easily say that the Pals are merely retaliating Israeli provocations. It's a long chain, you can't point to an incident and say, "these other guys caused it."

I'm confused-whose territory are they occupying? Palestinians don't have a state yet, so it can't be them, and afaik Egypt and Jordan aren't claiming ownership of territories. And yes, you can point to an incident and say "This palestinian suicide bomber did it." You could go so far as to say "Yasser Arafat allowed it/ condones it." Because they do.