Did we score a victory?

[Ned]

MTG, Obviously, you do not care for the UN being an effective organ for security. If the UN is unwilling to act with such a extreme case as Iraq, it will never act. That is the only conclusion fair minded people can reach.

[GePap]

Why is this such a "extreme case"? Honestly, the only reason that the inspections regime lasted till 1998 and all those sanctions were passed were the insistance of the US and UK to keep such a course. The rest of the world, even iraq's neighbors would have just let the issue die.

They had a very interesting article in the times a few day ago (Friday). You know, it seems that in the Charter of the UN, the UN was actually supposed ot have its own forces, to be provided by member states and lead by a strategic council of General to make the decisions. Obviously that never came into being.

As long as states think they can get away with ginoring the UN (states such as NK, Iraq, the US), the UN will be unable to do much.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
The UN's credibility is nessecarily faltered when Iraq was allowed to piss on it. Iraq has sucsesfully defied the UN for 12 years. 1441 called for full, immediate, absolute disarmanent.

Isreal has defied it for almost 36 years, with US backing the whole time.

The UN is a negative influence on our international affairs because it seeks to give hostile powers such as France, Russia, and China a veto over our foreign policy.

One of the purposes of the UN was to try and stop war. Since the US is attempting to be the aggressor here, the UN is attempting to fullfill its role. The problem is, the US is seen, rightly, as not even caring about disarming Iraq. The US treated the UNSC as merely some hoops it had to jump through in order to go to war, only to be surprised when the European countries take the matter seriously.

The problem isn't that the UN won't back up its resolutions, it's that the US has never respected it. If the US actually cared about disarming Iraq, we'd be more effective and creative and work with the international community to do it. No, the Administration has wanted war since 9/11, and it thought it could order the UN into backing it.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Agathon
There were even some pro-US rallies in the states that attracted reasonable crowds, although they shot themselves in the foot by having speakers complain about the anti-war movement being a bunch of "lesbians". Way to go to make yourself look like a bunch of dumb rednecks.

**shrug** I heard that comment, too, while watching CNN. Insofar as I'm concerned, it just goes to show some folks — regardless of political leanings — can be foolish. I've heard stupid things from the right-wingers and from the left-wingers at these rallies.

Gatekeeper

[DinoDoc]

I'm somewhat shocked that this development hasn't been discussed yet:Report: Germany Aimed to Block U.S. on War

[chequita guevara]

Interesting, but irrelevent.

Bush has made his ultimatum. Blair and Aznar will fall. It's time to make America ungovernable.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper


**shrug** I heard that comment, too, while watching CNN. Insofar as I'm concerned, it just goes to show some folks ? regardless of political leanings ? can be foolish. I've heard stupid things from the right-wingers and from the left-wingers at these rallies.

Gatekeeper

Fair enough, but the pro-war protest movement has now placed itself in an equivalent position to the anti-war camp. Perhaps it would have been better to have stayed quiet.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Interesting, but irrelevent.

Given the French race to reject the UK compromise before even the Iraqis, I'd say that it has a small bit of relevence at the very least.

It's time to make America ungovernable.

Doubt that you'll have the time if the first war is any indication.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

It's time to make America ungovernable.

Doubt that you'll have the time if the first war is any indication.

There are already plans in the works to shut down the financial districts of several major US cities.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
There are already plans in the works to shut down the financial districts of several major US cities.

You're about as illuminating as a White House terrorism warning.

PS Why not comment on the other half of the post? I'd like to know why you consider it irrelevent.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You're about as illuminating as a White House terrorism warning.

I don't want to give anything away. Seriously, it's already been in the news, massive civil disobedience.

PS Why not comment on the other half of the post? I'd like to know why you consider it irrelevent.

Germany's playing politics? That's news? All sides are playing politics, it's just that the current Administration is very bad at it, and is trying to use a claymore in a stilletto fight.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

lots of anarchists (libertarians ) got arrested yesterday in SF at the march.

[SlowwHand]

Che, you show vividly why you're screwed up.

None of the things you're proposing or advocating is of a positive nature.
You endorse anarchy, which is ignorant.

Hey. That's just my opinion.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Agathon


Vastly overrated. Who will you all come begging to to help with the reconstruction.

That's when we award all those juicy oil services and infrastructure construction contracts to American companies. You didn't think anyone else was going to get any of that action, did you?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


If it was only to expel the invaders out of Kuwait, why was it necessary to bomb the **** out of Baghdad, which is 500km away, and kill thousands of civilians?

Because most of the command and control for the Iraqi units located in the KTO was in Baghdad, as well as reinforcements, resupply, air defense, airfields, etc.

The majority of civilians killed in Baghdad in the air campaign were were killed by the millions of rounds of AAA (up to 100mm size) ordnance fired off by the Iraqis.

I also challenge you to find evidence from a credible source as to the actual number of Iraqi civilian deaths from the air campaign. The worst (and only really large incident) was the targetting of an underground complex that was used as a Corps level C&C center by day, and a bomb shelter by night. Just to show what a nice guy Saddam is, the Baghdad southern air defense sector C&C center was located in the basement of the Al Rashid hotel, where the Iraqi government had foreign journalists stay.