Massive pickets at my uni!

[KrazyHorse]

And no, I wouldn't cross the picket except to actually write a test or for other unavoidable responsibilities. Attending a class I'll likely sleep through anyways isn't one of them.

[Asher]

Okay, and that means they should be making tons more money an hour, why?

I know quite a few people as undergrads doing 60+ hours a week with work + school, why don't they get a raise when tuition increases?

Hell, we were at school for 16 hours straight alone yesterday.

[KrazyHorse]

Because undergrads aren't worth anything to the university. They take an education, but unlike grad students aren't giving back to the running of the school (both as an educational and research institution).

Plus grad students have already had to deal with the sh*t of being an undergrad for 4 years. The need for qualified grad students is high enough that TAships need to pay as well as they do, or else there would be a lack of them. Instead of going to grad school a lot would simply find jobs.

Professors need grad students. They don't need undergrads except for their tuition.

If a uni doesn't support its grad students on a decent wage then they'll run out rather soon. Their sweat is what keeps the wheels turning.

So for the future of the school alone I'd support the strike.

[KrazyHorse]

And a high school degree means you'll be flipping burgers. A BSc or a BEng is enough that there's an actual draw from the job market...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Frogger
Because undergrads aren't worth anything to the university.

University minus Undergrads equals _________?

They take an education, but unlike grad students aren't giving back to the running of the school (both as an educational and research institution).

There IS no school without the undergrads.

Plus grad students have already had to deal with the sh*t of being an undergrad for 4 years.

Elitism isn't a valid argument.

The need for qualified grad students is high enough

...is high enough that if they really don't think the pay is good enough, they don't need to be a TA.

that TAships need to pay as well as they do, or else there would be a lack of them.

And if there was a lack of them, they'd pay better...but there isn't a lack of them.

Professors need grad students. They don't need undergrads except for their tuition.

Professors don't have a job without undergrads...

[RedFred]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Without knowing the relative costs, which haven't been posted, how do you know 10% is reasonable? Exactly matching is probably too much, but what is too little?

RedFred?

Whoops! I wasn't trying to ignore you guys, I was watching an awesome hockey game. NYE, I don't know that the TAs whined any when their salaries were going up during the tuition freeze. So they did pretty well for 10 years. Hard for them to complain now.

Of course in their defense there isn't that much continuity. So most of the TAs around now weren't around for most of the tuition freeze years.

As with any negotiations there is always some posturing going on from both sides. But, again from my inside source, the UBC TAs were offered the 3rd highest TA wage in the country.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Asher

University minus Undergrads equals _________?

As long as the tuition money keeps flowing in, the university would do just fine as a research institution.

There IS no school without the undergrads.

Yes, there is. All undergrads contribute is tuition. TAs contribute their time both as educators (to convince the undergrads to keep giving uition) and then when they're RAs, as cheap research fodder.

[KrazyHorse]

Elitism isn't a valid argument

It's not elitism. It's the fact that they've already paid some of their dues. It's not like someone invented a time machine and went back and made their undergrad careers easier simply because they became grad students.

...is high enough that if they really don't think the pay is good enough, they don't need to be a TA.

And what I'm telling you is that if you drop the relative pay (compared to other institutions) you'll see the quality of your institution degrade fairly rapidly. The TAs you have right now will stay, but just as long as it takes to get their PhD...

And if there was a lack of them, they'd pay better...but there isn't a lack of them.

There's not an immediate lack at the school. There will, however, be a delayed shortage within 2-3 years if the compensation isn't on par with other institutions. The TAs you have right now are sort of trapped. The future ones simply won't choose to go to a school that doesn't pay them.

Professors don't have a job without undergrads...

Again, only because the undergrads provide cash. You can't pay someone to give cash to you, y'dig?

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I've never crossed a picket and may I join Hoffa in the ground if I do. I'd rather be dead than be a god-damned scab.

So if a nurses strikes pickets the hospital, and you're bleeding out and going intto shock...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Frogger
As long as the tuition money keeps flowing in, the university would do just fine as a research institution.

Tuition money doesn't keep flowing in unless there is undergrads.

Yes, there is. All undergrads contribute is tuition. TAs contribute their time both as educators (to convince the undergrads to keep giving uition) and then when they're RAs, as cheap research fodder.

You're oversimplifying it. The money the TAs get in extra pay comes directly out of the school. Money that could have gone to extra professors, new facilities, upgraded equipment -- a better learning experience.

Nothing is gained by giving TA's huge wage increases. They're already making a decent amount of money, EVERYBODY at the university is hurt by the extra wage increases, but if the TA's wage goes up that means the university costs go up, which means undergrads pay even more again...

And what I'm telling you is that if you drop the relative pay (compared to other institutions)

What does that have to do with anything here?
I wasn't aware that UBC (I think that's where obiwan is?) had substandard TA pay. Do you have a link for that?

From what I've heard, it's standard pay. They even got increases in wages in the tuition freeze. It's just now that the tuition has gone up, they think their pay should go up the same amount. Which is ridiculous.

[RedFred]

Oh and sorry for posting on topic. I keep forgetting that the objective seems to be to rile Asher.

Crossing a picket line is never easy. I have been in a position where I felt I had to, but it was a very uncomfortable feeling.

[Asher]

Speaking of one of the poll options...

Never! Unions should stick together

The dirtiest I've ever felt in my life is when I was mailed a union membership card.

[KrazyHorse]

What does that have to do with anything here?
I wasn't aware that UBC (I think that's where obiwan is?) had substandard TA pay. Do you have a link for that?

Nope. But I can also tell you that TA strikes don't come from nowhere. It's not like there are widespread demos for higher TA pay. Generally TAs take what they get, as long as it's enough to live on. So if a 45% tuition hike accompanied by a 10% raise in an environment where inflation is running at 4% doesn't end up with them having substandard wages then they had fairly high wages to begin with...

[Asher]

Anecdotal evidence:

But, again from my inside source, the UBC TAs were offered the 3rd highest TA wage in the country.

would say that UBC's TAs are doing just fine right now, relative to other institutions...

[David Floyd]

Crossing a picket line is never easy. I have been in a position where I felt I had to, but it was a very uncomfortable feeling.

Why uncomfortable? If you have to or want to do something that involves crossing a picket line, why should you feel bad?