Europe-US Split ... Ramifications May Last For Years

[Andrew1999]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The cafeteria menus in the three House office buildings will change the name of "french fries" to "freedom fries," a culinary rebuke of France, stemming from anger over the country's refusal to support the U.S. position on Iraq.

Ditto for "french toast," which will be known as "freedom toast."

How about in Europe? Have there been any moves to rename American football to "Liberty football"?

[Maniac]

We hardly play that game here.

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Ned
oliverfa, Most Americans are supportive of a united states of europe, in prinicple. We do not ever want to see a repeat of the two world wars in the last century. However, our vision of a united europe is one where we are friends and allies. One where we cooperate together to advance civilization to further our shared values.

I fully agree with you. An united Europe would be a very good idea and a way for the "old continent" to step forward into the future. I supported this idea and I still support it. What I don't support is a Europe whose main goal is to fight the US outside and the destroy the western values inside. I'd rather prefer being a citizen of a less important country which respects (or at least try to) the values of our civilization that a citizen of a new URSS, to say it in a few words. It would be ironical that now that Russia and the former soviet countries are adopting the western civ values the EU did exactly the oposite.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Ned
One where we cooperate together to advance civilization to further our shared values.

What shared values?

[Arrian]

Ned,

Has is occurred to you that if you take this paragraph...

What has happened in the last year has come as a shock to many americans. We see now that France and some elements of Germany (I doubt the CDU would be so anti-american) wants to lead a U.S. of E. down an anti-american path.

and change a few words like so...

What has happened in the last year has come as a shock to many Europeans. They see now that the USA is headed down an anti-european path.

that makes a bit more sense of their actions? This is not a one-way street.

-Arrian

[Maniac]

I'd rather prefer being a citizen of a less important country which respects (or at least try to) the values of our civilization that a citizen of a new URSS, to say it in a few words. It would be ironical that now that Russia and the former soviet countries are adopting the western civ values the EU did exactly the oposite.

Oh great. Going back to McCarthyism: Everyone who doesn't agree with the US stance is per definition a communist.

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Maniac
Oh great. Going back to McCarthyism: Everyone who doesn't agree with the US stance is per definition a communist.

At least that's what the oposition in Spain claims to be...

And to complete that definition, everyone who agrees with the US is a fascist imperialist...

[MBD]

It's long been a dictum of "realist" foreign policy analysis that shortly after one great power arises, another just as surely emerges to counter-balance it. In the past, that has meant militarily - but it could also be expressed diplomatically. Since the end of the Cold War, realists have been waiting for this to happen, but couldn't see how. China is still too militarily weak. Terrorist Islam operates on an asymmetrical level, but, as we saw in Afghanistan, it's still vulnerable to conventional military superiority. But if combined with the diplomatic and economic clout of the fading Euro-Asian powers - France, Germany and Russia - it could still manage some kind of balance. That, perhaps, is what is happening now. But, of course, these old powers are riding a terrible tiger in Islamist terror, hoping it will eat them last, terrified it is actually in a stronger position to devour them first. The counter-balancing alliance is therefore real but also terribly fragile. Certainly far more fragile than the shared values and military power of the Anglosphere. I think we should think of this riveting period as a time when new alliances are being tested for future use. Some might work; others won't. But that makes it all the more important to keep our nerve and make this war so successful it deters such potential hostile alliances from taking root.

another interesting take on what's happening now, from Andrew Sullivan.

[Ned]

I'm sorry, Arrian, but no one in the US is anti-European. We, do, however, have some strong feelings about France and Germany. After all, France and Germany are not Europe as Pekka and others have pointed out heretofore.

I would say that there is a tremendous amount of goodwill in the US for Britain. They have been there with us in Iraq since 1991, and have not only supported, but shaped our combined policy.

We have similar good feelings toward Spain, Italy, Poland, Denmark, Bulgaria and every other European state that has supported us.

It is interesting that the UK seems to have inherited none of the anti-US feelings of the French and Germans. They simply derisively label him a lap dog. He is hardly a lap dog. He is a great and courageous leader. One of the very best prime ministers Britain has ever produced.

So, in a way, this thread is "mislabelled."

[Agathon]

Anyone who has read the lunatic ravings of Wolfowitz et al. about ensuring American "pre-eminence" in the world and then read much the same thing in Bush's pre-emptive strikes policy has a right to be alarmed at current US policy. Why can't Americans see this?

Reading some of the comments on this thread makes me think that the United States as a country is suffering from a kind of psychopathy. The US attitude seems to be "We can do whatever we like to you, but you can't do anything to us, and you can't complain either. And this isn't a matter so much of power as of moral right (i.e. we're always right and God is on our side)." Add to this an inability to empathise with others and a ridiculous overreaction to any perceived or real wrong and I think you have a good case. When individuals suffer from such delusions they are labelled psychopaths - why not a country?

And don't say we all want to be like you. I can't believe Americans think that the rest of the civilised world would want to swap places. I certainly wouldn't and hardly anyone I know does. Your social system sucks and your political system is a joke, the press isn't free and crime is rampant. And add to it all a powerful pressure to conform to a reactionary military jingoism, and you've got a basket case. After all, if the cap fits...

Had to laugh at the guy who said three million demonstrators are not a majority. That assumes that the other 37 million don't oppose the war, which is laughable given the polls. It's a bit like saying that the Romanians didn't want to depose Ceaucescu because only a small portion of them joined the demonstrations against him. Protests are usually the tip of the iceberg. Mostly younger people who have the time and the extra inclination.

[DanS]

The US being Anti-European?

We don't have it in us. We can hardly keep up the anti-French rhetoric as it is.

[Drake Tungsten]

We can hardly keep up the anti-French rhetoric as it is.

It's hard, isn't it? For example, I want to boycott French goods, but I can't find any French goods I actually buy right now. It's so hard to hate these days...

[Odin]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk


Hybris? Is that some kind of tropical flower?

Excessive pride that leads to self-distruction.

Pax Americana is over people, the downfall has begun.
(Or prehaps a communist revolution.)

[The Vagabond]

I believe that all this talk about a Europe-US split is just bunk. Material being determines conciousness. In essence, Europe feels comfortable in America-centered world. Unless the war in Iraq goes terribly wrong, the current ideological rift won't shatter this materially determined reality.

[Drake Tungsten]

Excessive pride that leads to self-distruction.

That's hubris.

Hybris is a tropical flower, IIRC...

edit: After consulting a dictionary, it turns out that "hybris" is an actual variation of "hubris". Very interesting and I stand corrected...