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Treason of what? How can you commit treason against someone who you owe no loyalty, and who is asking your help or at least silence in breaking the law?
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324) -
Oliverfa :
Care to explain why the hostility to war in Europe's public opinions are so similar, whether it is in France Germany or in Spain / Italy ?
You seem to think Aznar's, Blair's or Berlusconi's positions match their populations, which is a false statement.
The division between EU's governments have nothing to do with a so-called division between populations or countries.
You traveled in Europe, and understood how different Europeans are. I don't think it has anything to do with Aznar or Chirac. It has to do with diverging histories and cultures over millenia. You'd have found out the same while travelling if Iraq had never become an issue."I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- DisComment
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Take another look at CounterGlow and tell me that with a straight face.Originally posted by HershOstropoler
As for the split - within the european public, definately not. And even not a large split between the european and the american public.No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.Comment
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* looks *
[straight face] As for the split - within the european public, definately not. And even not a large split between the european and the american public.
Just because of the loud ultranationalists?“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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I'm going to bed.No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.Comment
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night...
We have roughly 50 % opposition in the US, and 80 % in europe. Can't see a huge split there.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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vs the axis of reason....
We have roughly 50 % opposition in the US, and 80 % in europe.
Actually, the opposition is a lot less than 50%--37%. The numbers have been very consistent over the last decade. 66%-70% subscribe to the notion of removing Hussein by force, with allies and the UN. 57%-60% without the UN.
I'm guessing that the questions are much less muscular in Europe too. They probably ask about disarmament rather than overthrow.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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As this axis-dubbing has become popular, I thought I'd participate with another cheesy label....
I said "roughly" 50 % to account for the possible questions. If it's all nice and clean and support blah blah, it goes up there. If you put in the negatives, it goes down a good deal.
"They probably ask about disarmament rather than overthrow."
Huh? Why do you think that?
Also, disarmament is rather seen as a non-issue here. The whole dispute is about the Bush war for control of Iraq.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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You know, this sounds a lot like "Mr. Polk's War".I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Heard that before, but can't make the connection. What was Polk's war again?“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Mexican-American War. 1846. Historians recognize Polk as one of our best presidents, even though he's mostly forgotten in the collective American psyche.
There was a lot of dissention and protest because of very similar reasons to Gulf War II.
Huh? Why do you think that?
Well, what are the poll questions across Europe?I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Usually support of war against Iraq with UN mandate; support without UN mandate; support of Bush policy.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Of course, I will gladly explain why I think that. But you have to explain why the opinion of the people who express it louder represents the opinion of everyone.Originally posted by Spiffor
Oliverfa :
Care to explain why the hostility to war in Europe's public opinions are so similar, whether it is in France Germany or in Spain / Italy ?
About the country I better know, Spain, the anti-war demonstrators were less than 3 millions. That's a very small portion of the 40 censed millions in Spain. How can you mistake 3 million as the majority? Even more, in that demonstrations were lots of goodwill people that thougt they were going in a fair nice demonstration, but found instead that their presence was manipulated as if they were oposing the legal and rightful government. The Madrid demonstration ended with a manifesto in favour of Castro, Chavez the Colombian guerrilla and several others. (Is very enlighting that the defenders of "peace" are also the defenders of that people) This is a political manipulation of the acts of goodwill people. They were there to stop the war (wether if they were right or wrong) and they found that the organizers used the strength of their presence to support dictators and antidemocratical systems that violate freedoms every day.
This is very sad to say, but no one in Spain can freely express that he (or she) considers the war as the less bad solution, even if that is what our government thinks. As a result, the people who want to surrender to terrorists get voiced everywhere, and the people who think different can't simply express theirselves. And they say we are in democracy! Wow!
In the 20th century not single war in democratic country was backed by the people, and this is not an exception. People in democratic systems will always be against the wars because they disturb their lives and their Status Quo (any good civ player knows it). The enemies of the freedom are simply using this goodwill people, and manipulating them to attack the system of freedom represented by the western civilization, which has its best defender in the US.
Their position is backed by a democratic victory. As far as I know that's the only way of doing in democracy. They have the power, directly coming from the people who voted them. Trying to change this power by anything else is a perversion which passes over the democratic system. How do you count the number of people that back them and the number that don't do? So the democratic power isn't in the votes, but in the people yelling at the street or at the TV? Which system of government is this? The yellowcracy?You seem to think Aznar's, Blair's or Berlusconi's positions match their populations, which is a false statement.
The division between EU's governments have nothing to do with a so-called division between populations or countries.
The tree of them have been reelected, which means that their way of governing has been reevaluated and considered good enough by their people. The convervative party in Spain has won almost any single election in Spain since 8 years ago. I fail to see how a bunch of very vocal people can nullify all that. All the eastern european countries also support the US positions. Certainly our government systems are far from being perfect. But pretending that every single politician in Europe except the enlighted Chirak are fool people who don't listen to their people and don't care about them is a very high acusation to the western civilization, and all that it represents.
However, Schroeder has lost the two latest regional elections in Germany (one of them at a lander which they were governing since many many years) but I fail to see all these people that punished him manifesting in Germany streets. Isn't it curious?
You are completely right about that. It has nothing to do with the Irak issue. It's just an added deception. All this in conjunction made me regreet of my europeism.You traveled in Europe, and understood how different Europeans are.
I don't think it has anything to do with Aznar or Chirac. It has to do with diverging histories and cultures over millenia. You'd have found out the same while travelling if Iraq had never become an issue."Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
"A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)Comment
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Given the example set in the Balkans (US/EU intervening in an internal civil war outside of the UN to avoid a Russian veto), is that still true?Originally posted by HershOstropoler
The US was legally required to get UN approval.I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator RubioComment
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oliverfa, Most Americans are supportive of a united states of europe, in prinicple. We do not ever want to see a repeat of the two world wars in the last century. However, our vision of a united europe is one where we are friends and allies. One where we cooperate together to advance civilization to further our shared values.
What has happened in the last year has come as a shock to many americans. We see now that France and some elements of Germany (I doubt the CDU would be so anti-american) wants to lead a U.S. of E. down an anti-american path. Obviously, we are concerned, so much so, that we may begin to oppose greater unification of euroope.
What has happened is neither good for the US or good for europe.
Hopefully, after the dust settles, we can kiss and make up. However, I believe the first moves for reconcilliation have to be made by Chirac and Shroeder.http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=enComment
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