Europe-US Split ... Ramifications May Last For Years

[notyoueither]

No ****. One wonders if any of those interviewed in France are aware of the choices France had in 1936, and '37, and '38. Maybe they think that things ran the proper course...

It reinforces my view that the gulf is great, and growing.

[HershOstropoler]

"One wonders if any of those interviewed in France are aware of the choices France had in 1936, and '37, and '38."

One wonders if some people are aware of the difference between Iraq and Germany...

[notyoueither]

No, HS, one doesn't wonder about the consequences of facing a problem sooner rather than later, assuming one pays any attention to such equations in the first place.

[HershOstropoler]

"one doesn't wonder about the consequences of facing a problem sooner rather than later"

??

You mean: do everything soon, don't care about the con sequences?

[notyoueither]

I doubt anyone is doing 'everything' soon. In this case the US administration sees a threat they wish to address sooner rather than later. Why are some parts of Europe in a better position to say?

Maybe the Yanks should wait until Saddam is in the position of Kim? That would be good. Then they couldn't do anything without having nukes going off. That would be great! I'm sure a lot of people would be satisfied then.

Or, the US could continue to spend billions on keeping a lid on Saddam. I guess it doesn't matter much either way in the view from central Europe. You aren't paying to keep a lid on Saddam, and it won't be your young men and women who have to go and clean it up if it all goes terribly wrong. It's pretty easy to know what's best when you have nothing on the line but some arm chair morality and a few oil development contracts. Isn't it?

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Spiffor

We are agreed. I wouldn't mind a friendly separation though

Well I am partial to Brie, especially baked Brie.

[OliverFA]

Please. please, please don't say that there is a split between US and Europe. This is plain false, and it's the same that say that France and Germany are the only European countries that care. The majority of Europe (including the eastern countries former soviet satellites and the german voters that had made Schroeder lose the two last regional elections) believe that war is the less bad solution. I'm tired of arrogant people trying to speak on behalf of we all Europeans with no right. Last time I checked not Chirak nor Schroeder were Spain or Europe presidents, so they have no right to speak on behalf of my country. Last time I checked Aznar was Spain president backed with more than 10 million votes. The same for Blair, Berlusconi and Bush.

A lie doesn't become a truth just because you say it again and again, or just because you say it louder.

[SpencerH]

I think a real difference in this issue is the importance each side of the pond gives the UN. In most of Europe (at least where I've lived) many people think of the UN as a defacto 'world government' with real authority and importance. In the US the UN is not seen that way at all and some people would have us pull out of the UN altogether. I think thats why we see european people saying over and over that we have to act through the UN. Their position is not pro-Iraq or anti-US, they simply see the UN as the appropriate venue for deciding these issues.

That doesnt change the fact that the French and German governments are using this moment for their own agenda.

[The Viceroy]

There is no split between the US and Europe, there is a split between New Europe, and old Europe.

I was once a supporter of the EU, a strong advocate of UK entry to the Euro, and I hoped that we would oneday be as economically strong as the US..

First we had the French picking which EU rules apply to them and which ones don't (BEEF BAN), then they decide that Iraq is so much in the interest of France, that they need to Veto US action, when it clearly isn't. Then they threaten member countries to the EU about their pro-american stance, then they destroy NATO by refusing to allow help to a member nation ..

Now, NATO is a dead duck, the UN irrelevant, and my faith in the EU destroyed.

Such has been my personal distaste at what has transpired over the last few months/years, that I now advocate UK leaving the EU, and seeking an alliance with the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and other like minded countries who have shown that in your hour of need, they are willing to act to help.

Maybe im alone in these thoughts here in the UK, maybe im not .. But 1 more pro EU citizen of the UK, is now openly advocating a union else where...

[Dauphin]

Have you forgotten why we joined the EEC?

Humphrey: "Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last 500 years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now when it's worked so well?"

PM: "That's all ancient history, surely."

Humphrey: "Yes, and current policy. We had to break the whole EEC up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased, it's just like old times."


The US has joined our cause, and we should remain the man on the inside.

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by The Viceroy
There is no split between the US and Europe, there is a split between New Europe, and old Europe.

Your words summarize my opinions, Viceroy I also was and entusiast suporter of the EU (some people here might remember my profile having an EU flag instead of an Spain flag some months ago) but now all that entusiasm is broken. Not only because of all the things I see and hear at the news, but also beacuse of my travels around Europe and what I've seen there.

[MRT144]

whoops

[HershOstropoler]

"The US has joined our cause, and we should remain the man on the inside."

But you are being assimilated.

[HershOstropoler]

As for the split - within the european public, definately not. And even not a large split between the european and the american public.

Among EU and with the US governments, sure. We have the Washington rightwing gang plus its vassals vs the axis of reason....

[Guest]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
As for the split - within the european public, definately not. And even not a large split between the european and the american public.

Among EU and with the US governments, sure. We have the Washington rightwing gang plus its vassals vs the axis of reason....

That should read TREASON!