The Irony! (warning: this is a political post)

[mactbone]

The problem is that there are two forces at work in the world right now - globalization and decentralization.

Take a look at the Balkans, many of the African nations, or even Spain and you can see that not everyone likes to be part of a larger government because they don't think that their concerns are addressed.

On the other hand we have units like the EU.

Personally, I'm opposed to a World Govermnent because I don't think that my concerns would be met. The first issue would be poverty and most likely they would tax western nations ungodly amounts to balance things out. The reason I think that is because of simple statistics - North America and Europe have much smaller populations (and much larger economies) than the rest of the continents.

[srholmes]

Originally posted by MacTBone
First of all we've already seen that a simple worldwide majority is worthless - how many resolutions were passed in the UN by countries without the economic power to do what they voted to do? Second, the UN is represented by one vote per nation, so China gets the same amount of votes (in the General Assembly) as any other country like Guatamela.

The view of the majority must figure in some way in a democratic system. Either you count people's votes simply as I did, or you split them into a hierarchy of entities and sub entities and count the views of the high level entities.

I don't think that the system is perfect now, but at least it includes a democratic mechanism. Maybe you could have 2 or 3 houses, combining the US and UK systems, so that you can have one house with equal votes per country, one with votes proportional to populations, and one filled with recognised experts representing a range of walks of life to ensure that legislation passed is sensible.

Whatever you do, my point is that ignoring democratic principles while trying to spread democracy is hypocritical and probably counter-productive.

[srholmes]

Originally posted by MacTBone
The problem is that there are two forces at work in the world right now - globalization and decentralization.

Take a look at the Balkans, many of the African nations, or even Spain and you can see that not everyone likes to be part of a larger government because they don't think that their concerns are addressed.

On the other hand we have units like the EU.

Personally, I'm opposed to a World Govermnent because I don't think that my concerns would be met. The first issue would be poverty and most likely they would tax western nations ungodly amounts to balance things out. The reason I think that is because of simple statistics - North America and Europe have much smaller populations (and much larger economies) than the rest of the continents.

I agree, there are several forces, but they don't have to be viewed as being in opposing directions.

Global governance could relate to a few key area, such as individual rights, and international conflict. The world state would not have to have far reaching influence over every aspect of our lives as long as it maintained a basic stable framework within which we could live.

I would like to see world poverty dealt with. I don't think it necessarily needs large taxes on the West. After all, we don't all have the same degree of wealth in the West and I don't expect that to change globally.

I would remove the distorting forces of discriminatory trade regimes first and see where that took us. (For some reason this is difficult due to the influence of countries that profess to believe in free trade).I would expect it would go a long way towards making life tolerable in poorer countries, whilst removing the burden of arbitrary subsidies from Western taxation. The main losers would be the farmers (as a major example), the main winners would be everyone minus the farmers (in this example).

[Straybow]

Democracy without access to education and information is worthless. Didn't Iraq just "re-elect" Hussein as President? What kind of information about their own government do they get? Many countries perpetuate primitive tribal village cultures. I suppose they have value to people originating from those cultures, but I would not want them deciding things for my country.

When we in the West see how other countries are ruled we simply do not consider them worthy of ruling us. We have enough trouble with our own scoundrels without finding 3rd world scoundrels to add to the mix.

But even for countries with much in common we do not want our neighbors ruling over us or with us. Canada has no desire to join the United States of America. Wales and Scotland would probably jump at the home rule option were it ever let out of the bag.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Oerdin
A global majority has absolutely nothing to do with right and wrong. Nothing what so ever.

While that is true in principle, it remains a burden for the US to prove Saddam's wrongdoings. Particularly that links with terrorism silliness.

Originally posted by Oerdin
That means every other war in the last 60 years occurred without U.N. resolutions. For a full 90% plus of all conflict in the last 60 years there was no U.N. resolution. This isn't a new thing it is more a continuation of the status quo.

You missed the point. Duyba originally tried to seek UN sanction to make his actions look legit. While none is forthcoming, he changed his tone.

[Urban Ranger]

This ought to be fun

I wonder why none of the chicken hawks has the balls to comment on this:

The IAEA has made progress in its investigation into reports that Iraq sought to buy uranium from Niger in recent years. The investigation was centred on documents provided by a number of States that pointed to an agreement between Niger and Iraq for the sale of uranium between 1999 and 2001.

The IAEA has discussed these reports with the Governments of Iraq and Niger, both of which have denied that any such activity took place. For its part, Iraq has provided the IAEA with a comprehensive explanation of its relations with Niger, and has described a visit by an Iraqi official to a number of African countries, including Niger, in February 1999, which Iraq thought might have given rise to the reports. The IAEA was also able to review correspondence coming from various bodies of the Government of Niger, and to compare the form, format, contents and signatures of that correspondence with those of the alleged procurement-related documentation.

Based on thorough analysis, the IAEA has concluded, with the concurrence of outside experts, that these documents - which formed the basis for the reports of recent uranium transactions between Iraq and Niger - are in fact not authentic. We have therefore concluded that these specific allegations are unfounded. However, we will continue to follow up any additional evidence, if it emerges, relevant to efforts by Iraq to illicitly import nuclear materials.

[Emphasis my own]

IAEA full report

[uh Clem]

The Bushies were lying again? I'm shocked.

[Urban Ranger]

This is getting a bit much.

We now have bad sat images, bad documents, and plagarised report. What else is up next?

[Guynemer]

WAR! Ungh!
Good God, y'all!
What is it good for?

[Drogue]

Even if we don't have a world state yet, Britain (or rather Blair) claims to want to further democracy, but most British people are against it. How can we export democracy when we don't practice it? Moreover, the US and UK are both members of the UN, and support democracy. I'm not counting a veto (since that is undemocractic) but if they go to war without even a majority in the UN, how can they claim to be upholding democracy. I know there have been a few threads on this, but I've yet to see a decent answer.

This reminded me of a quote from a film (Crimson Tide I think)

We're here to preserve democracy, not practice it

[srholmes]

I have just been watching a debate on fox news channel to check out some different view points to my own. To be fair, out of 4 panel members they actually had one that represented the 'the UN route is important' viewpoint, to their credit.

Anyway most of the anti UN arguments seem to be caused by frustration with the time it takes to achieve anything there and by a sense that the US is so strong that the UN is irrelevant.

The view on achieving a majority in the UNSC was that the position of countries such as Angola etc were irrelevent, and as such these panel members weren't bothered about not getting a majority. One guy even said he welcomed its being undermined.

There was no real debate about the problem of ignoring democracy to install democracy (not that I really expected that from Fox news).

On a related note, though, I was quite impressed to see Clare Short (fairly high profile UK govenrment minister) threaten to resign in the event of a UK backed non-multilateral invasion of Iraq. I reckon there is a chance (maybe 10% - 15%) Blair could get forced out if he takes the UK down that road.

[Urban Ranger]

No comments from the Darth Bush supporters. It figures.

[srholmes]

Here is a relatively impartial summary of the history of UNSC votes.....quite interesting.

[Urban Ranger]

It's quite ironic that the pro-war faction now wants the vetoing power to be removed, considering that the US used it 76 times, just less than the former USSR.

[DRoseDARs]

Well, once the United States finally proves it serves no purpose for it to remain- in any real capacity beyond General Assembly representation - part of the UN and decides to leave, maybe the rest of the planet can finally get some good reform going there.

I don't dislike the UN's existance, nor do I dislike the United States having a role therein. I want the US to withdraw its support because decades of our leaders arrogantly disregarding the purpose of the UN have hindered its effectivness and limited its potential. There IS something to the UN being perceived as the US's knock-around b*tch...and it needs to stop. The US isn't alone in its disregard for the UN..but its the largest, repeat offender...

EDIT: On that last point, no I'm not saying "violating UN resolutions" I'm saying dismissing the will and purpose of the UN when it doesn't suit the US perfectly.