Marines Fight Each Other

[Serb]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I call BS.

I call you avatar BS.
What have you done with this Ghost girl?

[The Mad Monk]

Ah. Found it:

What are HEAT and SABOT rounds that are available in OFP tank models?
In one simple sentence, use Sabot rounds against armored vehicles, like APCs and tanks and use HEAT rounds against infantry, cars, trucks and buildings. For a detailed explanation of the difference between Sabot and HEAT rounds, read the following:

Tank projectiles are basically broken down into two types: shaped charge rounds and kinetic-energy penetrators. The two rounds differ in both composition and concept. Shaped round charges--or HEAT charges--focus the energy from an explosion into a small, concentrated area in order to penetrate armor plates. In order to defend against such projectiles, scientists developed combination armor that combined the hardness of steel with the fluid properties of ceramics. Combination armor combines a layer of honeycombed ceramic sandwiched by two layers of steel plates. Although the HEAT round easily penetrates the outer steel plate, the ceramics "flow" around the jet and break the jet into smaller components, spreading the force of the blast out into a larger area and reducing the effectiveness of the HEAT round.

The innovation of combination armor required the use of kinetic energy to punch through armor. This was no new inspiration, but was the original concept behind tank projectiles. Instead of relying on the HEAT round's explosive jet to pierce armor, kinetic-energy penetrators rely on mass and velocity. The armor-piercing fin-stabilized discarding-sabot (APFSDS) rounds contain very dense, long, slender darts, and are called long-rod penetrators. Commonly referred to as sabot rounds, these rounds burrow into a tank's armor upon impact. If the round contains enough kinetic energy, it will pass through the tank's armor and destroys whatever is inside. Often times, however, the round does not contain enough energy to penetrate all the way through. Although the round does not fully penetrate the armor, it creates many small armor fragments that discharge into the tank, causing destruction inside.

With rounds that use both kinetic-energy and the concentration of explosions to penetrate armor, scientists constantly research new ways to defend against such rounds and improve the survivability of armored vehicles. Using a combination of armor thickness, innovative materials, (combination armor and depleted uranium, for example) and armor slope assists the scientist in protecting against the different types of projectiles. The latest type of protection comes from reactive armor. Reactive armor is described as a sandwich of explosive between metal plates that explodes when a round strikes it. The explosive in the reactive armor detonates at the same time as a HEAT round, throwing the steel plates out against the round and highly disrupting the jet. Reactive armor's effectiveness against long-rod penetrators, however, is less significant because the sabot round is too massive for the steel plates to block.

...ad what do American tanks use?

The M829A1 (nicknamed the "Silver Bullet" by Operation Desert Storm tank crews) is widely regarded as the most effective tank-fired (M1 Abrams 120mm main gun) anti-armor weapon in the world, and overwhelmed Iraqi armor during Operation Desert Storm. The M829A1 is a depleted-uranium long-rod kinetic energy penetrator round capable of defeating heavily armored vehicles.



M829A2
As the executing arm of the Project Manager for Tank Main Armament Systems (PM-TMAS), TACOM-ARDEC recently fielded the M829A2, which enhances the round through increased velocity and improved terminal effects. The improved performance was attained by implementing new composite material technology and a new propellant with a higher loading density. The Cartridge, 120mm APFSDS-T M829A2 is the current production armor defeat cartridge for the 120mm gun tanks M1A1 and M1A2. It is a technology improvement over the M829A1, the "Silver Bullet" of Desert Storm fame. The A2's performance gains, while classified, result from several novel features. These include the use of new manufacturing process to improve the structural quality of the depleted uranium penetrator, the use of a carbon-epoxy composite for the sabot (a world-wide first in a projectile this large) and a special manufacturing process which partially cuts the propellant charge to allow it to behave ballistically like a granular propellant bed, while loading like a stick charge. Combined, these features increase the muzzle velocity of the M829A2 approximately 100m/sec greater than the M829A1, while operating at slightly lower pressure. PRIMEX is the sole producer of this advanced technology penetrator coupled with a state-of-the-art composite sabot and propulsion system. The M829A2 APFSDS-T KE munition is compatible with all standard NATO smoothbore 120mm tank cannons.

[Serb]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Words like invincible set off my BS detector like no one's buisiness.

I used terminology of American officers, who tried to destroy T-72 equipped with ERA with their ‘Silver bullets’ (iirc),
But, I agree there are no invincible things in this world. I should have used “almost invincible”.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Serb
But, I agree there are no invincible things in this world. I should have used “almost invincible”.

Same difference.

[The Mad Monk]

Form the Gulf War:

The following story happened to an M1 Abrams main battle tank in General Barry McCaffrey's 24th Mechanized Infantry Division during the Gulf War.


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It was raining heavily, and one M1 managed to get stuck in a mud hole and could not be extracted. With the rest of their unit moving on, the crew of the stuck tank waited for a recovery vehicle to pull them out.

Suddenly, as they were waiting, three Iraqi T-72 tanks came over a hill and charged the mud-bogged tank. One T-72 fired a high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) round that hit the frontal turret armor of the M1, but did no damage. At this point, the crew of the M1, though still stuck, fired a 120mm armor-piercing round at the attacking tank. The round penetrated the T-72s turret, blowing it off into the air. By this time, the second T-72 also fired a HEAT round at the M1. That also hit the front of the turret, and did no damage. The M1 immediately dispatched this T-72 with another 120mm round. After that the third and now last T-72 fired a 125mm armor-piercing round at the M1 from a range of 400 meters. This only grooved the front armor plate. Seeing that continued action did not have much of a future, the crew of the last T-72 decided to run for cover. Spying a nearby sand berm, the Iraqis darted behind it, thinking they would be safe their. Back in the M1, the crew saw through their Thermal Imaging Sight the hot plume of the T-72's engine exhaust spewing up from behind the berm. Aiming carefully the M1's crew fired a third 120mm round through the berm, into the tank, destroying it.


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The above story copied from "Armored Cav - A Guided Tour of an Armored Cavalry Regiment" by Tom Clancy. Visit the Tom Clancy home page.


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WhaleNotes on the above story

American Tank Armor
The American Abrams tank was able to survive due to the advanced and classified nature of the armor on the tank. The Abrams tank contains a reactive armor (which means that parts of it may explode back at the shell as it explodes against the armor) and also contains depleted uranium. Other countries use reactive armor, the T-72 tanks had it, but they don't have the depleted uranium. We are the only country using that technology. Depleted uranium is very very hard (and very very toxic).
HEAT Rounds
Note that the M1 tank was directly hit by two HEAT (High Explosive - Anti Tank) rounds from the Iraqi tanks. The HEAT rounds are shaped charge explosive shells designed to defeat heavy tank armor. When these HEAT rounds contact another object they explode throwing out a compressed jet of material at up to 29,500 feet per second (Mach 25!) in a small concentrated area. Note that the American tank survived two direct hits of this type with no damage. Don't try this at home.

SABOT Rounds
The other type of round that hit the American tank was referred to as an armor-piercing round. These are sometimes referred to as SABOT rounds or Long-Rod Penetrators. They are basically long thin rods, up to 2 feet long and weighing about 10 lbs. This "dart" is fin stabilized to ensure that it flies straight. The hardness of these darts is critical to their success. These rounds work using only kinetic energy and do not explode on impact. Their damage potential comes from their hitting a very small area (smaller than the HEAT rounds) with tremendous force. They can fly at up to Mach 4. The last T-72 tank in the above story fired this style round (the third shot) which only creased the frontal tank armor! Note that only the armor on the front of an Abrams tank could take any one of the three rounds fired at the American tank. A shot from another angle would have certainly killed the American tank.
American SABOT Rounds
The American tank in the story always fired SABOT rounds, but they killed their targets. These are the shots of choice by the American tankers when shooting other tanks. American SABOT rounds are thinner (making them more effective because they strike less of the enemy armor's surface area) and contain a "dart" partially made up of depleted uranium (DU), which makes them a very effective kinetic energy weapon. These darts are so hard one story from the Gulf War tells of a SABOT round going completely through an Iraqi tank and into a second tank, killing them both. The depleted uranium creates a different effect than other SABOT rounds because the American DU rod also tends to begin to burn as it drives through the enemy tank armor. Therefore when it penetrates the armor, part of it comes out as bits of high energy burning material. Because the Russian tank types (like the T-72 in the story) carry live ammunition inside the tank turrets, it makes for a big explosion. Also because the American SABOT rounds contain depleted uranium, they kind of make a toxic mess of the enemy tank.
Six for Six
One last point to consider is that in the above tank battle only six shots were fired and all six were direct hits! Considering the excitement of the crews and the movements of the Iraqi tanks, this really highlights the accuracy and lethality of today's targeting systems. Even the Iraqi T-72 tanks never missed.

[Serb]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Ah. Found it:
...ad what do American tanks use?

And?

[The Mad Monk]

...and what?

[The Mad Monk]

Oh sorry, I meant 30 mm cannon -- that's what A-10 Warthogs use.

I wonder how reactive armor reacts to CBMs...

[Serb]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Form the Gulf War:
Suddenly, as they were waiting, three Iraqi T-72 tanks came over a hill and charged the mud-bogged tank. One T-72 fired a high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) round that hit the frontal turret armor of the M1, but did no damage. At this point, the crew of the M1, though still stuck, fired a 120mm armor-piercing round at the attacking tank. The round penetrated the T-72s turret, blowing it off into the air. By this time, the second T-72 also fired a HEAT round at the M1. That also hit the front of the turret, and did no damage. The M1 immediately dispatched this T-72 with another 120mm round. After that the third and now last T-72 fired a 125mm armor-piercing round at the M1 from a range of 400 meters. This only grooved the front armor plate. Seeing that continued action did not have much of a future, the crew of the last T-72 decided to run for cover. Spying a nearby sand berm, the Iraqis darted behind it, thinking they would be safe their. Back in the M1, the crew saw through their Thermal Imaging Sight the hot plume of the T-72's engine exhaust spewing up from behind the berm. Aiming carefully the M1's crew fired a third 120mm round through the berm, into the tank, destroying it.

Reminds me 'Rambo-2' it sounds like the same fairy tale.

American Tank Armor
The American Abrams tank was able to survive due to the advanced and classified nature of the armor on the tank. The Abrams tank contains a reactive armor (which means that parts of it may explode back at the shell as it explodes against the armor) and also contains depleted uranium. Other countries use reactive armor, the T-72 tanks had it, but they don't have the depleted uranium.

Iraqis T-72 never had ERA. T-72 versions which we sold them were obsolete even by standarts of time when Soviet Union existed.

Considering the excitement of the crews and the movements of the Iraqi tanks, this really highlights the accuracy and lethality of today's targeting systems. Even the Iraqi T-72 tanks never missed.

My buddy former tank commander says that crew is the most important factor in battle, because all modern tanks approximately equal. (well almost equal, Russians are better of course )

[Serb]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Oh sorry, I meant 30 mm cannon -- that's what A-10 Warthogs use.

30...20... big difference. Arena could give enough protection from air attacks for sure, as for ERA I don't know, but I guess ERA containers could be placed on top of the turret too.

I wonder how reactive armor reacts to CBMs...

Why not ICBM?

Anyhow,T-72 is old tank, T-80U is my favorite. That's what I found about ERA of T-80U:
:T-80BV This is essentially the T-80B fitted with first generation explosive reactive armor . In addition there is a late production type with a new turret similar to the T-80U but fitted with the turbine engine and first generation explosive reactive armor . When fitted with its explosive reactive armor package, the T-80 is virtually immune over its frontal arc to penetration from all current NATO ATGMs which rely on a HEAT warhead to penetrate armor . With the explosive reactive armor fitted the smoke grenade launchers are moved from either side of the main armament back to either side of the turret and positioned between the turret side and the explosive reactive panels On the turret of the T-80, the panels are joined to form a shallow chevron pointing. Explosive reactive armor is also fitted to the forward part of the turret roof to provide protection against top attack weapons The explosive reactive armor package on the T-80 provides a high degree of protection against ATGMs such as MILAN, HOT, TOW and SWINGFIRE over the frontal arc. "

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/armored_vehicles/t-80_b.htm

[DinoDoc]

A Janes article would be nice about now.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Words like invincible set off my BS detector like no one's buisiness.

Nothing is invincible, not even an atom.

But to an unarmed human with no covering air assets, a T-72 might as well be invincible.

Unless you plan on using your crushed corpse to clog up it's tracks.

[Serb]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
A Janes article would be nice about now.

Could you post it? Please?
I don’t have Janes articles about ERA so how about this?

About “Arena” being invincible:
It's from the most popular Russian military magazine:

http://www.milparade.ru/28/014.htm

“Over the past 10 to 20 years, many countries have been involved in the development of active protection systems for tanks, but only Russia has brought developmental work to fruition and launched production. Arena is one such system. For its performance characteristics there are no other systems in the world that can compare with Arena . This system is designed to protect the tank against antitank grenades and missiles fired by all types of infantry weapons, as well as ground and air-launched ATGMs flying at a speed of 70 to 700 m/s, regardless of the type of control systems and warheads. “

This article explains how “Arena” works:

http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

See you tommorow, the end of threadjack mission.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Serb
Could you post it? Please?
I don’t have Janes articles about ERA so how about this?

I was asking you to post one. Janes would be more convincing for me than .ru websites.

[Serb]

Racist.



Last time I was trying to gain some info from Jane site they were asking for my login.

In Russia, The Military Parade, it’s like Janes in US. It’s well respected here.