Bus exploded in Haifa

[Guardian]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Monk: What is there to speak out about? Who here is FOR oppression of the Kurds? Or Chechnaya?

I'm surprised you're not familiar with expressions like "Silence = consent" or "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing." Especially the first one seem to be straight down your alley.

So, by not speaking out against these things, you are - in effect - making a statement FOR them.

Kashmir ELECTED to join India.

A significant portion of Kashmir seems to disagree with you...

Finally, I can find no record of "american oppression of native americans".

In other words, slaughtering entire villages in their sleep and forcibly relocating countless others to "reservations" in the middle of nowhere doesn't count as oppression to you? Then what's the deal with the Palestinians?

As far as I know, the only people here that are FOR oppression is the pro-Israelis.

Actually, the post you just made appears to be FOR oppression as long as it's not against Palestinians...

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu


Of course they would. Now, the question is whether they they serve me with a side dish of Snow White or Sleeping Beauty?

post your crap somewhere else


if you know they dont like you then why the heck do you come to spread your hate every time something is posted about jews or israel

[Sirotnikov]

panag - I welcome your attempts to try and help explain Israel's position.

However I still wait for explanations regarding your online persona and real life persona, and your manners of behaviour in public and private on the forums.

I've talked to Shiber and Azazel about it too.

[CyberGnu]

"

I only know one or two nazis. You're one.

I would like to know how, exactly. Please support your opinion. I'm guessing I'll get the usual incoherent ramblings, though.

This is again nonsense.

This is merely a well documented example of Israel's humane attitude.

Well documented? By whom? Israeli media, I'm assuming, but whom else?

Almost all of your accusations of inhumanity, come out of pure statistics, which you twist however you find comfortable.

source, please.

You equate first degree murder committed by Palestinians, to possible incidents Recklessness or Mansluaghter committed by Israeli troops.

Of course, since Israel is occupying palestine.

You fail to realize the results of urban combat against guerilla like forces

I fully realize the results, which is yet another reason to oppose Israels oppresion of the palestinian people.

You fail to agree upon Israel's right to exist and defend itself from terrorist attacks.

Are you talking about Israel as a country, or Israels inhabitants? For the second part: yes, it doesn't have a right as long as they are occupying the territories.

You seem to invent incidents of Israelis stealing land from Palestinians, without any actual backing up by facts.

Source, please.

The only case you could bring up is the 1948 war, however that is hardly a one sided story, as hundreds of Jews similarly lost their land, property and citizenship in the west bank, and several hundred thousands, lost thier land, property and citizenship in Arab countries.

Source, please.

It is basically nonsense, but I won't indulge you with details, since you will only seize that as an excuse to ask ME for sources, while avoiding it yourselves.

[Sirotnikov]

Consider them marked. Would you like to make a wager?

Depends.

Do we take into account the possibility of a failing parliament?

do we agree on an exact time frame?

I claim the following:

1. Assuming:
a. Arafat and his mates will be gone
b. The war in Iraq will be successfull and Iraq will be recovering and democritizing
c. Sharon's government will be stable (economically and socially wise)
d. There will be less terract attempts
e. Sharon will remain in power and will not be charged with implications in monetary crimes in Israel.

2. That:
a. Sharon will take out National Union and National Religious Party out of the colaition
b. Sharon will join with the Labour Party in a unity government
c. Sharon will remove IDF to posts close to those of Sept. 2000, though possibly with permission to go back in at will.
d. Sharon will make arrangements to dismantle a good part of the settlements, or create such an agreement, to be followed by the next government.
e. Sharon will negociate with a new Palestinian government directly or through mediators (USA, EU, whatever)
f. Sharon will liberalize Israel

3. In the time frame:
a. of the next 1.5 to 4 years, assuming he holds on to power, and doesn't suffer from serious threats on his position as PM.

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
"

I would like to know how, exactly. Please support your opinion. I'm guessing I'll get the usual incoherent ramblings, though.



Well documented? By whom? Israeli media, I'm assuming, but whom else?



source, please.



Of course, since Israel is occupying palestine.



I fully realize the results, which is yet another reason to oppose Israels oppresion of the palestinian people.



Are you talking about Israel as a country, or Israels inhabitants? For the second part: yes, it doesn't have a right as long as they are occupying the territories.



Source, please.



Source, please.

It is basically nonsense, but I won't indulge you with details, since you will only seize that as an excuse to ask ME for sources, while avoiding it yourselves.

if you can post here you yourself can find the sources

[CyberGnu]

proof that you know zip about Israel or the middle east

the only thing you ever do is "bilbul baitsin" , thats all you do

and get out of this thread , if you want your stupid facts make your own

we have lost enough friends and familiy over the years , we dont need BS from people like you

What is wrong? am I interfering with your anger, so you can deaden yourself to the suffering the IDF will inflict on innocent palestinians in retaliation? Maybe there is hope for you, then.

[Panag]

picture

[Guardian]

Gnu, if you're so concerned about the Palestinian people, then why don't you try to explain to them that bus bombings like this will only bring them more tanks, more bulldozers, more curfews and more checkpoints ?

Unless this is what they want, they might wish to consider trying a different approach one of these days...


You can't beat your enemy unless you can prove him wrong.
Blowing up his children will only prove him right.

That's why neither side ever wins in this conflict.
It's lose-lose all the way, and there are people on both sides who just don't get it.

[CyberGnu]

Guardian:

I'm surprised you're not familiar with expressions like "Silence = consent" or "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing." Especially the first one seem to be straight down your alley.

So, by not speaking out against these things, you are - in effect - making a statement FOR them.

Online forums don't work that way. Just like conversation, they are guided by events in the outside world, and by the participants on the forums.

When was the last time you had a spontaneous discussion about kurds with any of your friends?

[Sirotnikov]

the only thing you ever do is "bilbul baitsin" , thats all you do

= egg scrambling. an israeli term for "speaking nonsense".

I would like to know how, exactly. Please support your opinion. I'm guessing I'll get the usual incoherent ramblings, though.

How can I prove a nazi that he's a nazi? It's a lost cause.

Well documented? By whom? Israeli media, I'm assuming, but whom else?

Israeli, American and European media who have bothered to talk to simple people, instead of relying on the words of israeli or palestinian mediators.

source, please.

you talk about palestinian death tolls without any reference to the incidents sorrounding their death, or thier possible alliance with combatants (ie terrorists)

Of course, since Israel is occupying palestine.

this is bull****.

those things are uncomparable.

yes, it doesn't have a right as long as they are occupying the territories.

this assumes that one side is completely and absolutely right and the other is completely and absolutely wrong. And you expect both to behave absolutely objectively.

The world doesn't work that way.

Source, please

I'm sure anyone reading this thread can remember accusations of stealing land.

Source, please.

It is basically nonsense, but I won't indulge you with details, since you will only seize that as an excuse to ask ME for sources, while avoiding it yourselves

I use numerous sources: Israeli, Arab, American, Brittish, German.

You have so far quoted one or two articles by the guardian or washington post.

Every pro-israeli article, be it israeli, arab, german or anything else, you claim to be false and utter lies, since you personally can't verify the claims. then you decide it's probably a jewish owned media source and therefore vehemently zionistic.

sounds familiar?

[CyberGnu]

A significant portion of Kashmir seems to disagree with you...

Well, that is still the result of the vote. The "freedom fighters" in Kashmir are not even FROM Kashmir... It is basically a proxy war between islam and hinduism.

In other words, slaughtering entire villages in their sleep and forcibly relocating countless others to "reservations" in the middle of nowhere doesn't count as oppression to you? Then what's the deal with the Palestinians?

I must have missed this... Weird, I read the news paper every day, and yet I haven't found any mention of this. Could you give me some hints here, when did this happen? This week? This month?

I'm of course assuming you are not referring to events a 100 years ago, since that would be completely irrelevant.

[quote]Actually, the post you just made appears to be FOR oppression as long as it's not against Palestinians...[/quote[

Only if you are using your odd assumption of silence = support.

[Sirotnikov]

Gnu - have you actually seen any pro-palestinians on this site take up your position?

Except maybe one, whose name I fail to remember. He read up on "new historians" crap (which were all proven wrong by Efraim Karsh, who examined sources the historians rewrote and misquoted), and on Neturei Karta, and was sure he knows everything there is to know about Israel and Judaism.

He even allowed himself to make a bold statement that jews who don't follow Halacha are not jewish.

Who the heck is he to make that judgement?

That's like saying that all those who don't follow Catholic faith are not true christians. It's both silly and insulting.

[CyberGnu]

Gnu, if you're so worried about the Palestinians people, then why don't you try to explain to them that bus bombings like this will only bring them more tanks, more bulldozers, more curfews and more checkpoints ?

Unless this is what they want, they might wish to consider trying a different approach one of these days...

I've advocated this many times, but we don't have any palestinians on this board. The palestinians I've met in real life have roughly the same view as me: while we can wish for a complete and mutual cessation of violence, that will never happen, since extremists on both sides have a vested interest in continuing the conflict.

Only pressuring Israel to stop the occupation can lead to peace.

[Sirotnikov]

I'm of course assuming you are not referring to events a 100 years ago, since that would be completely irrelevant.

Not true.

The UN thinks that opression of the armenians is relevant.

The opression of african states by Belgium in the 19th century, is relevant in my eyes.

The conflict between israeli jews and arabs began in the 19th century.


But then again, why not claim that anything older than 1993 is irrlevant. And the fact that Israel conquered the west bank in 1967 is also - irrelevant.