Turks throw spanner in Bush's plan

[Az]

Also Azazel, isn't Turkey Israel's only local friend?

Yes. So what?

[Az]

See the post immediately above yours.

x-posted.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel

Yes. So what?

And why do you think you two are such friends? Becuase of that certain uncle that brought two different states together....

The Kurds are, sadly, not important enough for anyone including the US. Their hisotry of getting screwed will continue.. perhaps less now, but an independent Kurdistan? Nah.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by GePap
The US wants Iraq to remain a counterweight to Iran. If the Kurds get a state, not only does it weaken Iraq, but it makes the Shi'a an overwhelming majority in what is left, and in theory if not practice, make it a more friendly state to Iran: and the Saudis and other Gulf monarchs, all of whom have Shia minorities, also fear such an outcome. So, states that have reaons to quelsh an independent Kurdistan?

Iran, Turkey, Syria, SA, Kuwait, Baharian, Qatar.

States that want an independent Kurdistan?

Maybe Greece... probably not even.

Also Azazel, isn't Turkey Israel's only local friend?

Out of those on the 'quelsh' list, the only two states I'd care about is Turkey and Kuwait. Kuwait isn't going to complain very loudly, and Turkey...well, they just proved how fitting their name really is.

[GePap]

The flk in the admin. have different opinions about who and what they care about, and its them that decide. So no Kurdistan.

[Case]

Are crazy American 'patriots' flooding talk-back radio with calls about their plan to boycott Turkey meat yet?

[Az]

I think that's a BAM.

And why do you think you two are such friends? Becuase of that certain uncle that brought two different states together....

I know that perfectly well, though this is not the complete picture.
You know, I value the interests of the Kurds as much as I value the interests of Israel. or at least I try to. I am only human.

[KrazyHorse]

They're just getting around to renaming turkey "freedom fowl".

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel
I think that's a BAM.

I know that perfectly well, though this is not the complete picture.
You know, I value the interests of the Kurds as much as I value the interests of Israel. or at least I try to. I am only human.

Azazel: read what the admin. has said about a post war Iraq...in every single statement the admin. has said that the territorial integrity of Iraq is sacrosant. If someone is BAMing, its them.

Just cause you disagree does not make it a BAM: after all, Frogger and other have the same explination.

[Agathon]

regarding the Kurds, this was a bizarre story:

The big match unites a country of two halves

Luke Harding, in Irbil, sees a top Baghdad soccer team take on Kurdish rivals

Saturday March 1, 2003
The Guardian

It is well known in Iraq that the country's most devoted football fan is none other than Uday Hussein, President Saddam's eldest son. Unfortunately for Iraq's hapless sportsmen, Uday is also known for torturing players who fail to perform on the pitch.

So it was hardly surprising that when a football team from Baghdad made a rare trip yesterday to opposition-controlled northern Iraq they expressed their complete support for Uday's beleaguered father.

"We love President Saddam very much. We will stay with him to the end," Baghdad's 20-year-old goalkeeper, Saif Aldin Zammer, explained before yesterday's match with the Kurdish side Irbil.

"If there is war we will go and join the fidayeen Saddam [the Iraqi president's volunteer militia]," Mista Qalan, a defender, said in the away team dressing room. "We will fight to the death."

Saif's team is Al-Nafid, the Oil team. Their opponents yesterday, Irbil, are the best Kurdish side in Iraq's national league.

The country may be divided into two distinct chunks, but Kurdish and Iraqi sides play each other most weekends.

To reach Irbil, the Baghdad players had to travel across a reinforced Iraqi frontline, past freshly dug army trenches filled with oil, and up into the mountains of Kurdistan.

Were the players worried about an impending war?

"We will defend ourselves against any attack by America," Saif said. "We are not afraid. All the players in the squad are ready to fight. We know how to use Kalashnikovs."

Before running out on to the pitch, Al-Nafid's players broke into several chants for the television cameras, including "1234, we don't want a war" and "We give our blood, our blood for you Saddam".

Outside, several thousand Kurdish home fans had gathered in the afternoon sunshine, apparently unperturbed by the threat of conflict. One waved a Leeds United scarf, held upside down. Others expressed their admiration for David Beckham, and said they supported Manchester United.

As the game kicked off, the Kurdish crowd appeared to have forgotten its traditional enemy: Saddam Hussein. Instead, they broke into a long chant of "**** the Turks", a protest against an American-backed plan that would see thousands of Turkish troops pour into Kurdish Iraq.

Most ordinary Kurds now regard the Turks as more of a threat than the Iraqi army. After a few minutes of play it was clear that Irbil, ninth in the Iraqi league, were the slicker side.

Their star player, Ahmed Judea, turned out to be not Kurdish at all, but a Baghdad Arab bought from another club four months ago for a transfer fee of 1400 dinar (£120).

Shortly before half-time, he scored the only goal of the match, an elegant header. He had bagged two goals the previous week against Kirkuk, the government-controlled oil city a short drive west from Irbil into Saddam-controlled territory.

America's fourth infantry brigade is expected to liberate Kirkuk in a few weeks' time if the war goes to plan.

Football remains hugely popular in Iraq, and is one of the few pastimes that appears to unite the country's ethnic and religious factions.

Iraq is even a member of Fifa, but only just.

In the mid-1990s several members of Iraq's national squad alleged that Uday Hussein ordered them to be tortured after they lost a crucial World Cup qualifying match 1-0. The players claimed that they were locked in cells beneath the Baghdad headquarters of the Iraqi Olympic Committee (the director is Uday Hussein) for five days and beaten on the soles of their feet.

Fifa investigated the allegations but concluded that Iraq could carry on playing football.

Yesterday Saif Aldin Zamman, the Baghdad goalkeeper, was sanguine in defeat. "We have good relations with the Kurds," he said. "We are not fighting them any more."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,905389,00.html

[Agathon]

Good to see that important matters like league fixtures are not being interrupted by the threat of war.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by GePap
Azazel: read what the admin. has said about a post war Iraq...in every single statement the admin. has said that the territorial integrity of Iraq is sacrosant. If someone is BAMing, its them.

Just cause you disagree does not make it a BAM: after all, Frogger and other have the same explination.

You and I both know no existing state wants an independent Kurdistan but the Kurds are rather insistent about wanting one. How do you stop 18 million people from forming their own government? The only way I can see is by occupying the place with large numbers of troops very quickly thus "cutting them off" before they can organize a state.

Undenyably a one front invasion will take longer then a two front invasion so making the window of opportunity for Kurdish nationalists that much longer. I suspect that a combo of money and real Turkish interest in surpressing Kurdish nationalists will induce the Turks to go along with Bush's plan.

[Sandman]

This is very good news. I'm impressed that Turkey has refused to be bribed, at least for the moment.

The US wants Iraq to remain a counterweight to Iran.

Wanting to keep Iraq as a counter-weight to Iran sounds unlikely to me, given the differences in population and ethnic mix. Iran has three times as many people as Iraq.

[Case]

Originally posted by Frogger
They're just getting around to renaming turkey "freedom fowl".

[Ramo]

I think that's a BAM.

If Shrub and the rest of the Washington elite want an idependent Kurdistan, why hasn't he done it yet? Why haven't the Clinton or Bush I adminstrations done it in the past decade?

Well, since the Turks apparently cluster****ed the US' plan to invade from the north, it seems that this barrier is off. The other ones are actually very nice side effects for the US.

If the US allows an independent Kurdistan, the US loses its most important Islamic ally and possbly a strong ally in the EU. It also pisses off the new authority in Baghdad, and antagonizes Iran and Syria even more.