Whatever is wrong with #1: Old Europe

[Buck Birdseed]

What's the problem here? Surely Rumsfeld has a decent point.

We're the continent that has been war-torn for centuries, have experienced some of the worst atrocities seen by man and we're now venerable and wise, having learnt that fighting is not the answer and able to behave in a dignified, civilised manner.

Meanwhile, you're the young foolish upstarts who've yet to have your character built up by experience and brusquely brushing aside all reason to pursue your desires.

No problem with that description at all!

[JohnT]

Well, let's really oversimplify things a bit, shall we?

Let's say there are 3 stages of Civilization in the modern world:

Stage 1: Tinpot dictators who brashly ignore the hard won lessons learned by stage 2 and 3 civilizations, dictators who think there is a military solution to everything.

Stage 2: "Young upstarts" who achieve a bit of success, but still have tendencies that (to stage 3ers) make them revert to Stage 1 tactics (like using the military to solve some, but by no mean all, disputes).

Stage 3: Apparently, the stage Old Europe is in (according to BB). This "wise" stage decries all use of military force, constantly seeking diplomatic solutions even to their own possible detriment.

Given that Stage 1's and Stage 3's don't even speak the same language, how in Gods name can you deal with them?

[Capt Dizle]

europe is wise, okay. that made my day...

[Traianvs]

glad to hear that jimmyboy

[Kropotkin]

Continents or countries do not have their won consciousness. "They" are the sum of their inhabitants, or at least a portion of them. "Their" behavior can't be compared with the ages of man. All this is just crap.

[Main_Brain]

BTW I know a excellent restaurant in Washington namend 'Old Europe'

[Solly]

We're the continent that has been war-torn for centuries, have experienced some of the worst atrocities seen by man and we're now venerable and wise, having learnt that fighting is not the answer and able to behave in a dignified, civilised manner.

Has this person heard of Jacques Chirac?

What a couple of irrational threads.

[Traianvs]

Has this person heard of Jacques Chirac?

He probably has. If you are trying to say something, you might be able to specify?

[Solly]

Do I need to say anything?

Less intelligent than you think Bush is, judging by his latest adolescent outburst because eastern Europeans don't quite agree with him.

[Ned]

The difference between Old Europe and New Europe is how long ago they were under the boot of a dictator.

[Traianvs]

Ye well, as a communist, I don't agree with Chirac on the whole as well...

But I do want to say that the eastern Europeans (such as Poland etc) are just saying what the Us, Uk wants to hear, because that's beneficial for them.. In reality eastern Europeans don't give a damn anyway, it's actually none of their concerns

[Solly]

So you'd agree France is as imperialist as the US then?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Okay, here's just one of the many things that bug me about Rummy's "Old Europe" crack:

The implication is that rushing into war to dethrone madmen is the "new" way to do things, as exemplified by the US, whereas geopolitical realism and giving primary concern to national self-interest is typical of "Old Europe."

Ahem. When the Kaiser's army marched across Belgium, who was fighting -- and who merely looked on, then re-elected their president because he kept them out of the war? When the Nazis invaded Poland, who declared war -- and who chose to mind their own business? Who was the most virulently anti-Communist of all Western nations -- but refused to support the democratic uprisings in Hungary in '56 and Czechoslovakia in '68? The US spent the whole 20th century deciding which battles it would fight based on national self-interest, not out of any sense of moral obligation. That's as it should be. But let a couple of European contries do the exact same thing, and the name-calling begins.

Of course, one expects no less from men whose leadership styles seems to be modelled on the schoolyard bullies who pantsed them in their youth.

[Traianvs]

Bof... as imperialist.. I have no idea, I have a problem with a lot of governments policies actually

I'm just temporarily on the side of Chirac to ally against Bush

[Solly]

So you like his imperialist approach to Eastern European nations, and his hinting that he will veto their entrance to the EU?