Too close for comfort? A greater appreciation for an Allied WW2 Victory

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Main_Brain

Personally I think the Fact that the Training Fields in Germany were quite dangerous played into this. I mean Gigantic US Bomber fleets.. doesnt sound like a fun place to learn Flying.
Also dont forget that the Us is *slightly* bigger ;=)

I think that this is an excellent point. The luxury of having an ocean between you and the front is uniquely American. Not to mention that US had twice the population and UK had an empire to draw from. Also, not to mention that US had abundance of natural resources to draw from, etc...

[Ned]

Originally posted by Main_Brain

Personally I think the Fact that the Training Fields in Germany were quite dangerous played into this. I mean Gigantic US Bomber fleets.. doesnt sound like a fun place to learn Flying.
Also dont forget that the Us is *slightly* bigger ;=)

Which only meant that German aces had to be twice as good as American aces to stay even. Even a dumbkopf could figure this out.

Instead, US pilots were constantly reporting turkey shoots against inexperienced German pilots. Ditto the Pacific Theater.

I don't know about the German training fields being bombed by the US Air Force. I think this would have been a signal to redouble the efforts on air defense.

The Japanese had no such excuse, though, concerning bombing training fields.

[Dauphin]

I'd imagine Germany's problem stemmed from the fact that they had so little fuel to spare that German pilots had no flight experience except for active combat flights, whereas most Allied pilots would have had quite a few hours of flight experience before combat.

[Ned]

Big Crunch, Certainly this was true after the Allies had taken out Ploesti. But to the extent it was true even before then, which is quite possible, it simply indicates that Germany could not have won the war regardless of how high tech her machines were. They had no fuel.

[Sandman]

Two points on the German pilot quality issue.

1. If German over-innovating spread to aircraft, then pilots would find it difficult to adapt each time a new version came out.

2. Also related to the over-innovation, the Germans may have lost many experienced test pilots when trying out their wacky designs.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ned
Instead, US pilots were constantly reporting turkey shoots against inexperienced German pilots. Ditto the Pacific Theater.
.

I don't recall any turkey shoots against inexperienced German pilots. Any additional info.

IIRC, there was never a problem with the quality of German pilots until 45.

The Japanese were hampered by fuel shortages.

The Brits had an established training program, the British Commonwealth Air Training Programme in Canada. That gave them the same advantage of a safe training area that the Americans had.

[Joseph]

The Warplanes of the Third Reich by William Green.
I will just list the Jets.

Arado AR 234 2 engines 461mph a bomber
Arado, AR 234c 4 engines 515mph a bomber
Bachem BA 349 a rocket intercep. 495 mph
Blohm and Voss BV 155 2 engines 404 mph fighter
Fieseler FI 103 (V-1) 497mph at 8,000 ft.
Gotha Go 229 (Stealth come alive) 607mph at 39,370 ft 2 engines
Heinkel HE 280 2 Eng. 508mph
Heinkel HE 162 1 Eng. 521mph
Heinkel HE 132A 1 Eng. did not fly.
Junkers JU 287 V1 4 Eng. forward sweep wing. A bomber to be. 347mph
Junkers Ju 287 V2 6 Eng. was being built when Russian overran the factory.
Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet rocket fighter 596mph did see combat.
Messerschmitt Me 262 2 Eng. 540mph
Messerschmitt Me 263 The prototype was captured by Soviet intact.
Messerschmitt Me 328 an inexpensive, expendable single sortie escort fighter. 2 pulse jets 434mph Did not see action, but was flying
Messerschmitt P 1101 1 Eng. 610 mph ext. First few as X-5 USAF 705 mph and first variable sweep. You can see where we got our F-86 and the Soviet MIG-9/11

[Joseph]

The British Metor did fight in the last days of WWII chasing the V-1s.
The US P-80 was ready. I think the US did not want to loose one or let the Soviet know that we had one. I supect the Soviet knew very well we had a jet fighter because they knew about the A-bomb from the start.

[GePap]

MOre Jet fighters would not have turned the tide in the Eastern Front, were the Wehrmacht was evicerated, they would not have won the Battle for the Atlantic, and they would not have helped the Germans aquire the necessary raw materials, specially oil, it needed to win the war.

The importance of strategic bombing against Germany is overrated. More jets might have cut back bombing of factoires far from the front, but they would not have helped Germany aquire control of the air over the battlefields or stopped tactical and mdedium bombers form cutting supply lines.

By Jan 1943 the question was when germany would loose, not whether.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Tingkai


I don't recall any turkey shoots against inexperienced German pilots. Any additional info.

IIRC, there was never a problem with the quality of German pilots until 45.

The Japanese were hampered by fuel shortages.

The Brits had an established training program, the British Commonwealth Air Training Programme in Canada. That gave them the same advantage of a safe training area that the Americans had.

You may be right on when the German airforce fell apart. I will pay more attention to this point the next time it comes up.

But, from my understanding the Germans did not have enough pilots to put up much of a fight from mid-1944 onwards. This is when the Mustang began to dominate. (I only half recall the dates.)

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap
MOre Jet fighters would not have turned the tide in the Eastern Front, were the Wehrmacht was evicerated, they would not have won the Battle for the Atlantic, and they would not have helped the Germans aquire the necessary raw materials, specially oil, it needed to win the war.

The importance of strategic bombing against Germany is overrated. More jets might have cut back bombing of factoires far from the front, but they would not have helped Germany aquire control of the air over the battlefields or stopped tactical and mdedium bombers form cutting supply lines.

By Jan 1943 the question was when germany would loose, not whether.

As Georing said, had they mass produced the ME 262 fighter from 1942 on, the Germans may have controlled the skies, not the other way around. Who knows what German air superiority would have meant. Air power was often decisive in defeating the German army which across the board had superior equipment to the Allies.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Ned


You may be right on when the German airforce fell apart. I will pay more attention to this point the next time it comes up.

But, from my understanding the Germans did not have enough pilots to put up much of a fight from mid-1944 onwards. This is when the Mustang began to dominate. (I only half recall the dates.)

If my memory serve me well the Germans had only 2 fighter to cover D-Day. The rest of their fighter were coving Germany itself. The USAAF had every thing they needed.

[GePap]

And the Germans would have flown these planes with what oil? Oil was the critical factor. to train pilots you need to give them flying time. flying time means using fuel . If you have limited fuel, you cut back on training time of pilots.

I trust Goering's word as far as I can thrown him, and we all know how heavyset a man he was. He has self-serving reasons to say what he said, one fo them is not admitting that invading the SU and declaring war on the Us were immensely stupid dieas and sealed their fate.
What would control fo the air had meant in the East? The ME-262 was a great interceptor, not a great dogfighter, and a lousy tactical support aircraft. 2000 ME-262's a year would not have allowed the Germans to overcome the masses of Soviet armor, or allowed them to stop the US from shipping millions of men and millions of tons of equipment accross the ocean.

Perhaps the Germans could ahv amde the war a few month longer: but Jets would not have led to victory.

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap
And the Germans would have flown these planes with what oil? Oil was the critical factor. to train pilots you need to give them flying time. flying time means using fuel . If you have limited fuel, you cut back on training time of pilots.

I trust Goering's word as far as I can thrown him, and we all know how heavyset a man he was. He has self-serving reasons to say what he said, one fo them is not admitting that invading the SU and declaring war on the Us were immensely stupid dieas and sealed their fate.
What would control fo the air had meant in the East? The ME-262 was a great interceptor, not a great dogfighter, and a lousy tactical support aircraft. 2000 ME-262's a year would not have allowed the Germans to overcome the masses of Soviet armor, or allowed them to stop the US from shipping millions of men and millions of tons of equipment accross the ocean.

Perhaps the Germans could ahv amde the war a few month longer: but Jets would not have led to victory.

Well, GePap, you are right about the jets being useless as tactical air support. However, the Germans still had dive bombers and wire guided missles. If they air superiority, they could have used these to great effect against Russian and US armor.

But you are right, even before Ploesti was destroyed, they didn't have enough fuel. This makes one pause and consider that they should have done a lot more to secure the Mediterranean before they went on their adventures in the SU. Lybia could have been the oil supply.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ned
But, from my understanding the Germans did not have enough pilots to put up much of a fight from mid-1944 onwards. This is when the Mustang began to dominate. (I only half recall the dates.)

Assuming this is true, and it probably is, by mid-1944 the Germans did not have a secure training area. Allied fighters, including a/c other than the Mustang, were doing sorties throughout Germany. Pilots in training risked being shot down on their first solo.