The Sunflower Dilemma - Could you forgive?

[SlowwHand]

As I said, and just like Boris, you choose to ignore, I never condoned Nazi's.
Talking INDIVIDUALS, not the GROUP.
As a matter of fact, that would be more up your alley, wouldn't it?

[Ming]

HEY!

See you in 24 hours Sloww for making the following personal attack after a warning..

As a matter of fact, that would be more up your alley, wouldn't it

[Boris Godunov]

Ok, let's wipe the slate clean here. It's now down to given your opinion on what YOU would do if you were in Wiesenthal's situation.

If you've already stated your opinion, I'd kindly ask that you just let others who haven't say what they would do. I'd also like to avoid recriminating others for their particular answers. Thanks.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I just don't see any reason to doubt Karl's remorse as genuine--Weisenthal does not, and he would have more reason to doubt than any of us.

I don't care. His crimes far outweigh his feelings.

[Az]

Che, but I don't think that him enduring that last pain will be of any utility.

[chequita guevara]

Forgiving him would cause pain to those in the camp, as well as the families of the massacred (provided any survived). Most importantly, it would cause pain to me.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Forgiving him would cause pain to those in the camp, as well as the families of the massacred (provided any survived). Most importantly, it would cause pain to me.

None of them need know you said anything. As far as those people are concerned, Karl wouldn't have even existed. He'd have just been one of the many SS men who committed crimes.

If it would cause you pain, then of course that's your personal decision.

[Chris 62]

Having come in late, and not really having read the posts after the intial, my opinion.

Should he have forgiven the soldier?
No

Should he have taken the letter?
No

Should he have lied to the mother?
Yes

My reasoning is only from my point of view.
Commiting atrocieties and asking your victim for absolution seems rather odd, if he needs forgiveness as a catholic, he should ask god for it.

That covers the letter as well, he could ask a chaplin or a nurse for help there.

The mother is an innocent, she didn't need the pain of knowing her son was a war criminal.

Just my 2 cents.

[Az]

The pain you would cause yourself by forgiving him is the only thing keeping me from saying to him I forgive him. Therefor, Ideally I would try to strike a balance.

Of course, there, and then, I'd probably curse him, or if fearing repricussions, would leave the room.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
This is the difference between saying you repent and actual repentence.

That's why I'd've kicked him in the nuts and then asked if he were still repentant. If somebody wants to be forgiven, then they've got to earn it -- they've got to prove that they're genuine.

[Sten Sture]

I would say "you are forgiven" even if it was bullsh!t. I believe in aleviating suffering, even for those who may deserve their pain, and with lies if necessary. If that hurts me or makes me feel guilty, so be it. And definately concoct some story for the soldiers mother, to let her rest in peace.

Like how Marlow handled telling Kurtz's wife about his death in Conrad's Heart of Darkness. 'he spoke your name' when he really said 'the horror, the horror'


Good thread, Boris.

[JCG]

I would tell him that I am not the one who has to forgive him, but I IMHO think he has received his just punishment.

I would also have told the truth to his mother, she deserves to know. Better to know a horrible truth than to forever live in doubt.

[MattyBoy]

OK
I stopped reading after page 4.

At first, I thought the question was simple and my answers were as follows:

a) It doesn't matter, as he will be dead in a few hours anyway - so, whatever makes the Jew feel comfortable at the time.

b) I agree. Why upset the mother for something that she didn't cause anyway?


After reading further, I felt that Vel made a good point with (a). I have now changed my mind to say that I could not live with myself if I had forgiven him. This is more important than providing a brief moment of comfort.

It would do ME harm to forgive, in the case presented by the initial post. I couldn't do it. Couldn't live with myself.

I have shifted my opinion on (b), too. If it were a less important crime, I would choose not to upset his mum just for honesty's sake. However a crime like this is so significant it demands public airing to reduce its chances of being repeated. The scale of the crime also adds weight to the need to speak honestly.

[MattyBoy]

Actually, It doesn't matter what you say to the criminal and his mother, as long as you write a book to publicise the truth. This is a much more efficient way to propogate the truth.

[Straybow]

If he was truely repentnent, he wouldn't have asked for forgiveness.

Hmmm, I wonder where you learned about repentance? That is diametrically opposed to the truth. Repentance can only be driven by the desire for forgiveness, else there would be no point.

Most importantly, it would cause pain to me.

Ah, there's the rub. Hearing a confession and all that is for the other person. It isn't about you.