Our Allies... the Germans

[HershOstropoler]

"The point here is that the Euro's have been asking for the smoking gun, and they already had it."

And you are so sure about this because.. ?

"Germany seems to think it's such a credible threat, they are desperate to buy 100 million vaccinations..."

"desperate" ? Where do you get that from?

"And they didn't bother to tell anybody for political reasons."

That's extremely difficult to tell. If they tried to hide the information, however, then why did it show up in budget deliberations as a government paper? Government leaks usually take a different route.

[HershOstropoler]

"would not Powell have included it in his report?"

Good question. However circumstantial the evidence may be, it would still be better than pasting a 10 year old uni thesis...

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Ming
There must be a reason WHY they are buying Millions and Millions small pox vaccinations. That's not something you do without proof

The USA and many other counties have been doing this ever since all of the fear mongering after 9/11.

[Sava]

small pox for camels is a smoking gun? Ming... I sometimes wonder about you

[Ming]

Originally posted by Osweld
The USA and many other counties have been doing this ever since all of the fear mongering after 9/11.

True... but the timing here is a "tad" suspicious, don't you think.

And again, Sava, you didn't answer the question. What legitimate reason is there for having it... I wonder about you sometimes

[Sava]

Despite the Germans' problems, I don't think that this discussion answers any of the questions on why the war in Iraq is justified or not. I'm not simply against the war because I'm a hippie peacenik... Here are my reasons for being against the war.

1. 100 billion dollar+ price tag
2. American lives at risk
3. Hatred towards America it will spawn
4. Possibility for sparking a greater conflict
5. Possibility of Saddam launching a WoMD against someone before he dies
6. Bush's motives
7. What happens to Iraq afterwards

I'm not convinced that the end result of going after Saddam is worth the price we are going to pay for the war. It's a results vs rewards situation for me. Anytime a politician wants something like this so bad, I get suspicious.

And attacking Germany's credibility (whether they have a leg to stand on or not) doesn't help answer any of these questions. It just distracts people's attention from the real issues we should be discussing. And it's obvious that the Bush admin loves these distraction tactics.

BTW, it's nice to know you care

[Ming]

This thread isn't about whether the war is justified.

It's about the Germans holding out on information because it was in their political best interest.

They got caught with their pants down, and their spin control doctors have been trying to do the best they can with it. Hmmm... Kind of like some of the people here...

[HershOstropoler]

"It's about the Germans holding out on information because it was in their political best interest."

I'm not convinced about that in this case. Where they did that was for example with the budget debacle.

I'm still not sure what gives you so much gloat material about the politics as usual.

[Sava]

we need a :sigh: smiley...

Kind of like some of the people here

I hope you're not talking about me. I really don't care about the Germans, I'm not a German fan, I've never used their objection to the war AFAIK as an argument against it. And I certainly am not about to spin away this issue for the Germans. Everybody has skeletons in their closet in terms of Iraq. But if you're going to open this can of worms, it's only fair to look at all parties involved and compare the skeletons in the closet in relation to historical dealings with Iraq.

But I won't even do that, because it doesn't contribute to the overall topic (which this is related to).

[Velociryx]

Bottom line:
Germany and France have been screaming for proof of WOMD since day one.

Germany knew all along that such weapons existed, and in fact, regarded it as enough of a threat to order 94MILLION additional doses of the vaccine against it.

They conveniently "forgot" to tell the rest of the world this lovely little detail...all the more convenient for them, specifically because it IS the proof they have been clamoring for.

If there was no percieved threat, there would be no need to bulk up on vaccinations.

OTOH, if there's enough of a threat to bulk up on vaccinations, then there IS pretty compelling proof of WOMD's.

Given that Germany HAS, in fact, bulked up on its vaccinations, it was holding its left hand out demanding proof that the right hand was already holding (behind its back, of course).

-=Vel=-

[HershOstropoler]

"Germany knew all along that such weapons existed"

That's quite plausible, just for other reasons. Do you really think such knowledge is required to stock up on vaccine?

"They conveniently "forgot" to tell the rest of the world this lovely little detail..."

You can't be sure about it. They might well have shared the intelligence (evidence, not necessarily proof) under the condition that it is not used politically - which might also explain why Powell did not rely on it.

"all the more convenient for them, specifically because it IS the proof they have been clamoring for."

Why are you always assuming "proof"? Am I misunderstanding the english language as to what "evidence" is, and what "proof" is?

"OTOH, if there's enough of a threat to bulk up on vaccinations, then there IS pretty compelling proof of WOMD's."

I can't follow that logic.

"it was holding its left hand out demanding proof that the right hand was already holding (behind its back, of course)."

That, again, is very likely, just for other reasons, not this overhyped smallpox story....

[Velociryx]

HO - Not much need to stock up on vaccines against a disease that hasn't reared its ugly head in quite some time. Further, to make such a dramatic increase (and no matter how you slice it, 6m to 100m IS a dramatic increase), would require a heightened level of percieved threat. You don't just one day decide...."hey! we need to make a nearly 20-fold increase in the Smallpox vaccine!" Just doesn't happen without a reason.

The logical conclusion, therefore, is that where there is smoke, there is fire. If there is that dramatic of an increase, it follows that there is a percieved threat of the virus surfacing.

Given the recent surfacing of this information, is it really all that hard to put 2 and 2 together and get 4?

-=Vel=-

[Ozz]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Germany knew all along that such weapons existed, and in fact, regarded it as enough of a threat to order 94MILLION additional doses of the vaccine against it.

Drug companies sure do well, make the danger, make
the antidote.

[Velociryx]

Ozz! Don't get the conspiracy theorists started! Next thing you know, we'll be hearing about how the Oil Cartels are in cahoots with the BioTech companies, and *they're* the ones secretly masterminding the whole thing!

-=Vel=-

[HershOstropoler]

There's a general increase in the real or percieved threat of bioterrorism or biological warfare. "a heightened level of percieved threat" can be based on a heightened possibility of such stocks in Iraq. Or North Korea. Or out-of-control stock in Russia.

The whole story is quite murky, you're clutching at straws to make the case that Germany knows about Iraqi bio and chemical weapons. There's no need for this. All western intelligence services should have a relatively good idea about those. A lot of stuff for this was provided by the west, after all. And they should have a good deal of information from the 91 war, inspections and dissidents.

"Germany knew all along that such weapons existed" - Yes, I think so.

So?