Does the U.S. need to make a new global organization with like minded nations?

[DuncanK]

China, Russia, Germany, and France. Wow! Who else could join this one? NK?

[Ned]

Originally posted by DuncanK
China, Russia, Germany, and France. Wow! Who else could join this one? NK?

No, Iraq.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ned


Frogger,

We really did not have to get involved in that war. Hitler did not attack us - we attacked him with lend lease and the Atantic Charter - coupled with an embargo of his ally Japan. Had Roosevelt not put the screws to Hitler and Tojo, we would never have gotten involved.

The French owe us.

We will remember how they repaid us.

Neddy-pie, I forgot how Hitler was coming across the Atlantic to invade Canada. That must be why we sent our men over.

Twit.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Frogger




Neddy-pie, I forgot how Hitler was coming across the Atlantic to invade Canada. That must be why we sent our men over.

Twit.

Tell me that Canada had no legal obligation to help Britain and I will begin to believe you.

[KrazyHorse]

If you're that ignorant, you should perhaps choose to read a bit of Commonwealth history.


Date of declaration of war by the UK on Germany: Sept. 3, 1939

Date of declaration of war by Canada on Germany: Sept. 10, 1939

[DuncanK]

frogger, why are you bringing that up? I don't see the relevance. If you aren't mad because of France's actions fine. You can atleast see why we are.

[KrazyHorse]

Why I'm bringing it up is that any time a European government does something that the US doesn't like, a bunch of Americans start screaming about how much Europe owes them yada yada yada. It's starting to get pathetic.

Europeans have the right to choose their own foreign policy, and just because it doesn't align with yours doesn't mean that they're pissing in the graves of WWII soldiers.

If you wanted a vassal Europe you shouldn't have let them vote their own governments in after the Germans were defeated.

My own country was helping Europe with no more of a personal stake in a European conflict than the US had, and we were doing it starting Sept. 10, 1939, out of a conscious choice to go to war to stop a great and gathering evil and to help a friend and ally under imminent threat of attack from a territorial expansionist who would not consent to being contained.

Your country halfheartedly helped Hitler's enemies starting in 1940ish and only plunged into war after you were directly attacked.

France, Germany, Belgium, Denmark etc. owe Canada a debt of thanks for helping free them from internal and external oppressors, and no more. They don't owe us a subservient foreign policy, and they certainly don't owe you one.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Frogger
Europeans have the right to choose their own foreign policy, and just because it doesn't align with yours doesn't mean that they're pissing in the graves of WWII soldiers.

Ok, I was being dramatic. I don't do it all the time. In fact, this is the first time for me. I just think they are being irresponsibe. So is Bush.

edit: first time euro-bashing for me that is

[Ned]

France is doing more than making independent judgments about its own best interests. It is deliberately sabotaging American foreign policy. Even if it does not agree that Saddam is a threat to FRANCE, it should not be deliberately standing in our way if we believe it threatens AMERCIA or in Turkey's way if Turkey believes Saddam is a threat to it.

France has aligned itself AGAINST the US, the UK and Turkey in this affair.

What possible interests of France are involved that could compel it to become a virtual ally of Saddam?

OIL?

Are they placing French oil concessions ahead of the interests of their allies?

It appears to be the case.

[KrazyHorse]

It is doing what it can to stop a war in Iraq, which it believes is irresponsible and dangerous.

France has aligned itself AGAINST the US, the UK and Turkey in this affair.

What possible interests of France are involved that could compel it to become a virtual ally of Saddam?

OIL?

That's less believable than the thought that the US would start pumping Iraqi oilfields and taking the money for themselves.

Nobody in France wants war. Public opinion is such that the Chirac government would be signing its own death warrant to support the US in going to war in Iraq. The fact is that you haven't succeeded in convincing the European street of the need for war, and until you do you're going to be stuck with a motley assortment of European governments that are willing to go against the judgment of their voting public. What this means is that they might not be around for long.

[DuncanK]

frogger,

There is a huge diference between not supporting us and working against us.

There are huge concequences to the world for the actions of all the governments involved. While I'm against the war, its plainly obvious that there is some justification for it. We have been working with the international community and we have shown that Iraq is in violation of UN resolution 1441. That justifies war against them. Frances actions are wrong, dangerous, and foolish.

[KrazyHorse]

Duncan, what you're saying is ridiculous. The French should just shut up if they don't agree with you? They should abstain instead of voting against you?

Whatever. You still want them to have a subservient foreign policy. Would you feel the US had the obligation to keep its mouth shut when the French went to war? If so, what about 1954ish in the Suez?

[KrazyHorse]

In other words, the American hawks here would do a lot better to actually argue for their case instead of sitting around whining that other people don't agree with them.

[Kramerman]

My own country was helping Europe with no more of a personal stake in a European conflict than the US had, and we were doing it starting Sept. 10, 1939, out of a conscious choice to go to war to stop a great and gathering evil and to help a friend and ally under imminent threat of attack from a territorial expansionist who would not consent to being contained.

Frogger, America during the post WWI era were highly isolasionist. Most Americans felt we were involved in WWI, a european war, for no good reason, adn payed a high price in blood for nothing (btw, i dunno much about canada in WWI. were yalls experience similar to ours?). America didnt hold off fighting hitler because we wanted to make money off it, just politically it wasnt feasible.

The vast majority of Americans didnt see it as our war, adn didnt want American blood spilled again for a European conflict. And then, after JAPAN attacked us, we went to war against Germany, because Roosevelt had the American populace galvanized behind him. He wanted to, and tried to help the British all along, but couldnt because of the overwhelming isolasionism. Since the begining of the war, many American pilots volunteered to go to Britain and fly as British airmen, as the US could not send troops to help directly without making the home polulace furious (same thing in China too, to help against Japan), so many Americans volunteered selflessly.

The United States was not selfish in its acts, nor was it selfless, it only did what it could due to political reasons. Now im not one to gloat, and say the Euros owe us, cause i dont care. But I think its odd that you say the US has no right to act all high and mighty, when you are then turning towards making Canada look high and mighty...

[KrazyHorse]

I'm not trying to make Canada look high and mighty; I'm saying that I don't feel that the French owe us anything more concrete than a thank you. And neither do they owe you any more than that.

France, Germany, Belgium, Denmark etc. owe Canada a debt of thanks for helping free them from internal and external oppressors, and no more. They don't owe us a subservient foreign policy, and they certainly don't owe you one.