Saudia Arabia - do US troops have to leave?

[Pekka]

But as traditional enemy? Maybe not.. Is this a reason to keep troops there? I think not if they ask the US to leave.. then they should leave. I wouldn't close my eyes as I turn my back though.

[Ned]

I think we should withdraw from both Kuwait and Saudi Arabia - but voluntarily. Once Iraq is over, there is no clear threat to Saudi Arabia or Kuwait in the area. We should politiely ask to leave, and the permission to leave should be gratiously granted.

If we are "booted" out, this will leave a very sour taste in our collective mouths about "ingratitude." The Saudi's are smart enough to know this.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Pekka
Willem, Enemies? Not for now maybe.. but there is much more anti-US material in Saudi Arabia than in Canada, or many other countries. 15 of the highjackers in 9/11 tragedy were Saudi citizens. That counts for something. Saudi Arabia has torturing as a common method. It has lots of fundamentalists, and they will take over once the leader falls. And they will make the leader fall, it's just a matter of time. They only give positive press to the outside world, and sure it has lots of good folks, but the problem potential is just too big to forget, it has potential of making lots of troubles to the US, and they are already pressuring the country. Many big players in terrorist scene will come from Saudi Arabia.

Maybe so, maybe not. But the fact is that right now, having American troops in Saudi Arabia are exasperating the tensions between the fundamentalist and the moderates. It's considered holy ground and American boots are a desecration of their faith. That's the main reason why Bin Laden decided to go on his campaign, and why so many of the hijackers were from there. If removing US troops there will help ease that tension then it will be a good thing.

[Sava]

Silly Willem, you need to pay more attention to history. First, they want our troops out. Then, since we're so eager to give in to their demands, they say we should stop helping Israel. When the US finally says no to Saudi demands, they attack with weapons "Made in the USA". And if we do go into Iraq, a billion muslims will hate the US even more than they do already. It's only a matter of time before fundamentalism takes control of the so-called "moderate" Arab governments.

[DanS]

Over the past two years, we have been looking for a good time to leave, and this seems like a good one.

As for the promised political reform, we'll see how it unfolds. I would like to see it happen, of course, but understand that there may be some self-imposed limitations for them.

[Pekka]

Willem, yes.. as I said, if they ask troops to leave, they should leave.. they're independent after all.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Sava
Silly Willem, you need to pay more attention to history. First, they want our troops out. Then, since we're so eager to give in to their demands, they say we should stop helping Israel. When the US finally says no to Saudi demands, they attack with weapons "Made in the USA". And if we do go into Iraq, a billion muslims will hate the US even more than they do already. It's only a matter of time before fundamentalism takes control of the so-called "moderate" Arab governments.

I think you're being paranoid frankly. It seems to me that they're simply acknowleding political reality. If they're sincere about reform, they just might be able to steer the country away from fundamentalism.

I also think that Iran plays a part in whether that will happen as well. It's been the clearest example yet of a more or less successful fundamentalist state, and even the people there are moving towards reform and democratization. No doubt the Saudis will see that and wonder whether fundamentalism as a form of government is practical.

[Sava]

I'd like to be optimistic, but I think realistic is a better word instead of paranoid. Look at what the US did with Iraq in the 80's. And look where we are at now.

And Iran is a very fragile piece of this puzzle right now. Iran's government is more of a threat to the US than Saddam; they harbor and allow Al Qaeda to operate in their country. But what's more important is that Iran has a defiant segment of young people who want a more democratic system. The US risks alienating these people by killing Iraqis. And since Bush's policy creates hate and breeds terrorists against the US, I don't have much hope for the Arab people in the future liking us.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Sava
they harbor and allow Al Qaeda to operate in their country. But what's more important is that Iran has a defiant segment of young people who want a more democratic system. The US risks alienating these people by killing Iraqis.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Iran harboring Al Quaeda is even more laughable than Saddam harboring them - Iran: shiites, Iraq: Sunnites. Al Quaeda has only sunnite roots, it's incompatible with shiites. Iran backed up every possible opposition against the Taliban in Afghanistan, they warned the world of the threat they posed much before 9/11.
And the Irani won't give a damn about the Iraq, and they're not Arabs.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Sava
I'd like to be optimistic, but I think realistic is a better word instead of paranoid. Look at what the US did with Iraq in the 80's. And look where we are at now.

The two situations are entirely different. Iraq wasn't trying to institute reforms within it's own country, it was just trying to win a war against an enemy and consolidate power. If the Saudi's are concerned more about democratizing their system, and not causing trouble for their neighbours, why is that a bad thing?

The US risks alienating these people by killing Iraqis.

They're mortal enemies of the Iraqi, many of them will think Bush has done them a favour. Alienation won't be a big problem unless the US sets it's sites on Iran next.

And since Bush's policy creates hate and breeds terrorists against the US, I don't have much hope for the Arab people in the future liking us.

All the more reason to look at alternatives. If pulling US troops out of the Muslim holy land will help ease some the strain, why shouldn't the Saudi's discuss the possibility?

You don't get loyalty at the point of a gun, only compliance.