Dedicate Bush a poem!

[axi]

Btw, Moses Priesley, two thumbs up! :d: :d:

[Bereta_Eder]

Axi,

Don't know just is.

True it was not a big deal back then and is not a big deal now either unfortunately. Still there's something about generalizing over a whole group of people based only in which god they believe to (or not) that is rather discomforting.

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW Bukowski is one sick old porn man.

I read two of his books. There are all about screwing and a faux sence of "escaping" the microastiki (lower middle class?) mentality of security, order and conservative values.

example of his writing: "So I went back to my hotel, and a student came to tell me she liked my books, so I ****ed her"

And that theme (even written exactly the same) seems to encompass 90% of the 2 books of him I read.

Better go with Vocacius - more diversity and more interesting


Didn't know he wrote "poetry" too

[Az]

Freedom, freedom, you will be bought
by merchants and consortia and jews.

great, just GREAT!

[Bereta_Eder]

It is great and so true... even more so considering it was written in the beggining of the last century. It is almost... prophetic..!

I just happen to disagree with the all encompassing last word.

[Az]

I think that it shows racism, and prejudice. You cannot separate the song into parts. Does Mr. Karyotakis think that jews are bad?

And the fact "It rhymes", and ESPECIALLY "It's a jewish stereotype", isn't an excuse. It's not like it's like it's ancient history. This was the 20th century.

[Bereta_Eder]

Well, d'uh!

That's what I am saying too: that the word "jews" in that verse is unacceptable.

I was surprised to see you disagree. Your last post's irony was absolut and it worked!

Now in the question about is it possible to differantiate between a slander against a group of people and the overal value of the rest of the poem, I'd say a cautious yes, provided the slander is pointed out. And that it actually serves the opposite of what the writer wants. (i.e. see it for what it is: a slander, instead of the "truth" (in the poet's mind)

[Lawrence of Arabia]

'If you're happy and you know it, bomb Iraq' (sung to the tune of if you're happy and you know it, clap your hands')[with texas accent]

If we cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq
If the markets hurt yo mam, bomb Iraq
If the terrorists are Saudi
And the bank takes back your Audi
And the TV shows are bawdy
Bomb Iraq

If the corporate scandals growin', bomb Iraq
And you ties to the are showin', bomb Iraq
If the smoking gun ain't smokin'
We don't care, and we're not jokin'
That Saddam will sson be croakin'
Bomb Iraq

Even if we have no allies, bomb Iraq
From the sand dunes to the valleys, bomb Iraq
So the hell with the inspections;
Let's look tough for the elections
Close your mind and take directions
Bomb Iraq

While the globe is slowly warming, bomb Iraq
Yay! The clouds of war are storming, bomb Iraq
If t he ozone hole is growing,
Some things we prefer not knowing
(Though our ignorance is showing)
Bomb Iraq

So! Here's one for dear old daddy, bomb Iraq
From his favorite little laddie, bomb Iraq
Saying no wouild look like treason
It's the Hussein hunting season
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq

[Az]

It's great that you are opposed to this generalization,but...

Pointed out by whom? If we analyse the poem, in regards to the feelings the poet wanted to pass to the readers, we'll see in the first paragraph ( I forgot the correct english word for this ):

Freedom, Freedom you crown
it tears, it bites the skies. Your light
without scorching, it blinds your people.
The Americans, golden butterflies,
are calculating how many dollars
costs today your supersubstantial metal.

without getting into the literary analysis, of metaphores and artistic means we can see that the poet is criticizing the Statue of Liberty which symbolyzes the US, for placing greed as a part of it's culture. He clearly places himself on the side of the "common people", sides with the working class. He's clearly a socialist, and that, of course, is cool with me.

next:

Freedom, freedom, you will be bought
by merchants and consortia and jews.
Many are the debts of our century
many the sins that the generations
will read when they will compare you
to the portrait of Dorian Gray.

Here, he continues talking to Lady Liberty, the US, and says that It's controlled by what for him as a protector of the working class are "the enemy", merchants, consortia ( corporations). All those that have to be destroyed by a revolutionary effort ( "the fight", paragraph #3, and him being a extreme-left winger). And guess who's also to be destroyed? The Jews.


I think that the case is closed.

[Bereta_Eder]

That's one interpratation of course. And the beauty of art is the different meanings each gains according to his own experiances/realities/ways of thinking.

While one cannot say that one interpratation is "wrong" (the main beauty of it is what feelings it can evoke to each individual) I have a different interpratation about the 3rd paragraph.

I interpret the last paragraph where it points out that freedom is "missed" and that people that "fought" for freedom but got only in return turmoil and suffering as the various peoples that indeed fought for freedom but were unable to gain it.

About the merchants corporations that buy and sell freedom I agree completely and believe it is inginious and almost prophetic writing especially for the early 20th century.

About the "jews" being included in there too I think this is racist, a slander and completely unacceptable and indeed shows the writers feelings about people of jewish religion.

Also a couple of other points:
_his saying that corporations and merchants buy and sell freedom does not necessairily make him extreme left wing IMO. Just a thinking man.

_he does not speak of anything having to do with the destruction of those two or the "jews".

Still that this is a racist, slander in there?
No question about it and no excuse about it either IMO. And the only thing it accomplishes is lowering the esteem of that poet to my eyes at least.

[Az]

I'll continue the discussion tomorrow.

[Bereta_Eder]

I sincerely hope I wasn't the reason you suddendly felt all sleepy

See ya!

[axi]

Oh come on, Azazel, your comments are totally off the mark! Destruction of the Jews - get real!

First of all Karyotakis was no socialist. He was a petty-bourgeois civil servant. His philosophy was incompatible with socialism because he was a romantic and a pessimist. In the last part of the poem, he sees only the vanity and futility of the modern way of life, the life of "freedom", as freedom has become. The last verse is totally pessimist.

Needless to say, the guy commited suicide eventually, in 1928.

[Bereta_Eder]

Tombs

What peace reigns here!
As though the tombs also smile,
while the dead speak quietly
in capitals, deep in the dark.

From there they want to rise with
simple words into our peaceful hearts.
But their complaint, or what it is they say,
- they've gone so far away - is useless.

It's all there is, there, two crossed bars
of wood, Martzokis. There Vasiliadis2,
just a big stone book.

And a plaque half-hidden in the grass
- thus now it's symbolised by Hades -
there's Lamaris, a forgotten poet.

and other joyful poems are to be found here

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~shil0124/poems/nepenthe.htm

A propos I tried to melodize a poem by Karyotakis a long time ago. Forgot the title of it now. The friends' feat in the countryside table. Punk rock song Karyotakis Well, it sounded good. To me and 2 others at least

[VetLegion]

AHA!

Freedom, freedom, you will be bought
by merchants and consortia and jews.

There we go! Explicit antisemitism in Greece in 1920!



That is 13 years before Hitler came to power and 19 before wwII!



Did you know Thesaloniki used to be a city with jewish and turkis majority?



blah blah blah blah bla balalalalala alals lal bla ala bla blah






paiktina stop posting troll threads about Croatia, I really dont see the point in playing the antisemitism game