Blix challenges Bushs statements

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
Its impossible to prove a negative.

Is it really so much to ask that Iraq provide a verifiable accounting of the weapons we already know about and that they follow the example laid down by South Africa when it comes to cooperation with inspectors?

[Ned]

So, Blix has be granted access to US intelligence, has he?

[Demerzel]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
cavebear, the US falls into all those categories.

quality and so true...

Cavebear, I think most people don't have a problem with going to war with Iraq if there is a good reason backed up by evidence. They just don't want to go to war with Iraq cos dubya wants it and when he can't make up his mind what excuse he'll use and keeps changing it, it doesn't help his case.

Unless the release all this secret intelligence they claim to possess, they are going to see their case weaken and weaken to the point where dubya might be forced to go to war unilaterally.

[Gatekeeper]

I want to see more evidence as well, but you have to admit something: If a lot of what they're getting is from genuine HUMINT (Human Intelligence) from moles in the Baghdad regime, and they go public with it all the time, how long would it take for Saddam to hunt down and drown the moles? And wouldn't other would-be moles see what happened to their predecessors and therefore clam up, thereby denying the U.S. and other Western countries key intelligence?

Human intel is the *best* you can get, folks. Better than satellite. Better than any expert's hunches, logical or not. And better than inspectors, who apparently don't have the balls to fully implement the latest U.N. resolution. When it comes to human intel, you can't just use it carelessly and expect the pool to replenish itself, because it won't.

Maybe I'm just playing the devil's advocate here, but I don't think we, as the armchair generals, can just be oblivious to what I said above.

Gatekeeper

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Dino....I'm saying that his information has GOT TO BE, by default, better than the Shrub's. He is on the ground in Iraq, not thousands of miles away in the oval office. (by the time the Shrub gets his information, it's six, seven generations old, at a minimum).

First rule of good governance is to trust your experts. Listen to what they're telling you.

This guy's name was not just pulled out of someone's arse, he was hand-picked to go over there and snoop.

If anybody has a good idea of what's going on over there, my money would be on Blix and his team.

-=Vel=-

Now Vel, you have to be kidding me. Are you really taking the position that the Blix has better info than the combined efforts of US and allied intelligence agencies?

Do you really believe that with all the money we are willing to throw around that we have absolutely no covert assets in Bagdad?

Do you really believe that we get no useful information from neighboring governments on Iraqi activities?

Do you really think that Blix has be fully briefed by our intelligence community to the extent that he can put what he sees in the proper context?

Do you really think that Blix sees anything of substance that Saddam doesn't want him to see?

When will we get a demo of Candy's Bra?

jt

[Sava]

Do you really believe that with all the money we are willing to throw around that we have absolutely no covert assets in Bagdad?

Yeah, a bunch of Texas white boys dressed in desert Arab attire speaking poor Arabic stopping people on the street saying, "So seen any nukes today?"

Either that or they're paying some so called Iraqi defector that tells them outlandish stories about Saddam and his alien equipment...

I think 9-11 proved that the US intelligence (oxymoron) is grossly inept. And if Bush is making decisions based on bad intelligence... well... I wouldn't want to be living in Baghdad the next few weeks.

[Capt Dizle]

One of the great unspoken reasons for invading Iraq is to establish deterrent. In the light of the 9/11 attacks I think that the Bush team, as they had a right to be, were greatly concerned that a lack of strong response would be interpreted by the heads of foreign governments that they could get away with sponsoring direct terrorists attacks on American interests.

Taking out Saddam sends a clear message that America will not sit idly by should goverment sponsored terrorism be directed against us. Maybe Saddam is simply being used as an object lesson.

Geopolitics like beer is best served cold.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Sava

Yeah, a bunch of Texas white boys dressed in desert Arab attire speaking poor Arabic stopping people on the street saying, "So seen any nukes today?"

Either that or they're paying some so called Iraqi defector that tells them outlandish stories about Saddam and his alien equipment...

I think 9-11 proved that the US intelligence (oxymoron) is grossly inept. And if Bush is making decisions based on bad intelligence... well... I wouldn't want to be living in Baghdad the next few weeks.

I disagree that Us intel is inept. We had more than enough info. The thing you may not understand about America, Sava, is that a capitalist democracy has tremendous inertia. It is our greatest weakness and perhaps the thing that will do us in over the long term.

Absent an event like 9/11, it would not have been politically possible for any administration to implement the kinds of safeguards that are needed to protect us against this sort of attack.

You should realize that we routinely have intel on many threats and only a finite amount of resources to deal with them. The 9/11 event has increase our resources, including intel.

There is no question in my mind that our intelligence has a great deal more on the ball than your viewpoint indicates.

[Sava]

It's so sad to see our leaders playing right into the hands of Osama bin Laden jimmytrick. What do you think bin Laden wants? He wants the US to attack an Arab country in retribution for 9-11. OBL's goal is to start a holy war. And Bush is apparantly ready to give him that.

And that's F'ed reasoning if I ever heard it. Let's attack a country because somebody else commited a terrorist attack against us. The only lesson that will teach the world is that America is no better than Nazi Germany. Committing a pre-emptive military action is wrong. Period. There's a line between good and evil, and Bush is about to cross it.

And whether or not the conspiracy theorists and paranoid right wingers in the government might think about Iraq's alleged terror connections, Iraq is innocent until proven guilty. Bombing Baghdad won't do a damn thing to protect this country from a terror attack. In fact, it will probably just make a billion Muslims hate us much more than they do now.

[Sava]

There is no question in my mind that our intelligence has a great deal more on the ball than your viewpoint indicates.

History has and continues to point to the contrary.

[Capt Dizle]

Take a look at this link folks:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/867105.asp?0cv=KA01&cp1=1#BODY

Sava, we just disagree. We could duel and add to the bloodshed but I am old and it would be my blood so I'll just leave it at words.

[Sava]

I'd like nothing more to be proven wrong, believe me. I'm not against going to war if Saddam is hiding things. My point is simply that the Bush administration has not presented evidence supporting it's point. And while a lot of other Americans can be content with just trusting them to do the right thing, I'm skepticle, and simply exercising my democratic right to hold my government responsible. And right or wrong, it's an American duty to not only participate in government, but keep it in check by holding it accountable.

And for the record, I think that the airlines and transportation boards need to be blamed for 9-11 more than the intelligence community. Intelligence is a tough business and you can't always get concrete facts to stand on. Lack of security was the cause of 9-11. And what's sad is that even with all the airport security increases, the methods the terrorists used to get on board those planes would still work today. But whether or not you agree with me on that, let's stay on topic .

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Now Vel, you have to be kidding me. Are you really taking the position that the Blix has better info than the combined efforts of US and allied intelligence agencies?

Do you really believe that with all the money we are willing to throw around that we have absolutely no covert assets in Bagdad?

Okay, suppose the US has some spies in Iraq. Turned Iraqi IOs, say. How in the world can you tell they aren't lying? They can even be double agents, there's no way you can tell.

Iraqis seem to hate the US with a passion, so it is kinda hard to get any sort of human intelligence at all.

[Velociryx]

I am of the opinion that our intellegence apparatus has proved itself to be less-than-reliable in this region.

Blix's specific purpose for being sent into Iraq was to inspect and detect weapons of mass destruction. If we don't listen to what the man says, then why did we bother to send him over? Coulda left him at home if we weren't gonna put any stock in what he tells us, and from what I'm hearing from the Shrub, he's taking Blix's report and putting his own spin on it (ie - slanting it to suit his purposes). That's not the same as *listening* to the hand-picked guy sent there for the purpose stated above.

Sure, we've got intel assets over there, and once in a while, they do us a spot of good.

But not lately. If our intel was as good as the US government would like us to believe, I contend that we would not be rebuilding the WTC. But no....I'm definitely not saying that Blix has more sum total information about Iraq than the combined weight of our Intel...only that, when it comes to Weapons of Mass Destruction, he's our self-appointed front man. He IS one of our intel assets.

And we oughtta take his findings seriously.

-=Vel=-

PS: Candle'Bre is REALLY starting to come together! We're on Alpha 20 right now, and if I had to guess, I'd say that Alphaa 21 will prolly be our last....after that, it'll be known as Beta 1....

-V.

[uh Clem]

The intelligence is of no value if its interpretation is politically biased. Bush and Rummy haven't liked what they've been getting from the CIA, so they've told them to go back and get more acceptable results. And gosh darn, they'll probably manage to do that, finding something that was "overlooked" earlier.