Old Europe left out in the cold?

[Spiffor]

I suppose Italy and Spain weighed the situation carefully before deciding whom to support : notice how much time they needed before writing the article ? Did these countries have no stance on the Iraq war before ? Or perhaps it took them a whole week to write the news article ?
I think a very important element is missing in this thread : with the 40th aniversary of the Elysée Treaty (French-German friendship), Paris and Berlin tried to create a new dynamics to the French-German axis, with many initiatives taken.
The strong common stance against war was symbolic of this new dynamics. And it is new : Paris and Berlin have disagreed on many, many topics in the past. Both countries are now forcing themselves to agree with each other, to take again their dominant position within Europe.

Important EU countries took the time to assess if they were able to resist the renewed French-German couple or not. It is clearly a manoeuver from former "lesser" countries like Spain and Italy to show they are now equal actors. They chose to adress the most important topic publicly (this way, even Americans know about it), but you can expect them to counter French and German efforts in some other domains as well. At least, until the confrontation ends.

I don't think Italy or Spain will be more or less reliable than France and Germany as US allies. Their ultimate decision to join the war will hang on an agreement of the UN security council (which will happen if China or Russia decide not to back the French-German veto, as these countries will withdraw it), and on the agreement with war in the population. Approx. 75% of the French and Germans are against war in Iraq, I wonder what these figures are in Italy and Spain

[Fidel]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler


Still at uni, or found something else?

At Uni, of course.
He who knows does. He who doesn't, teaches

Anything new in Salzburg?

[HershOstropoler]

"He who doesn't, teaches"

Indeed, indeed....

"Anything new in Salzburg?"

Nothing particular. Might be in Nis for a couple days in autumn.

[Fidel]

oh let me know

[Traianvs]

8 countries support a war?

big deal, there are still 40 countries left in Europe that don't at the feet of prez Gore warmonger bush

[Thorgal]

Approx. 75% of the French and Germans are against war in Iraq, I wonder what these figures are in Italy and Spain

In the last survey +80% of the spaniards are against the war.

[Spiffor]

thx for the info

[Bereta_Eder]

80% is the percentage of the Turkish people that oppose the war too.

[Bereta_Eder]

A funny note on one of the really massive demosntrations that go on in Turkey against the war, on a sign they have written to their "government": Don't be a son of a Bush

[Drake Tungsten]

Don't be a son of a Bush

Important EU countries took the time to assess if they were able to resist the renewed French-German couple or not. It is clearly a manoeuver from former "lesser" countries like Spain and Italy to show they are now equal actors. They chose to adress the most important topic publicly (this way, even Americans know about it), but you can expect them to counter French and German efforts in some other domains as well. At least, until the confrontation ends.

Good for Spain and Italy. It's time someone stood up to the self-serving leaders of Old Europe.

[Spiffor]

Drake : Remember the French-German ticket wasn't as self-serving as one would believe. Many European achievements of these last 40 years have been made because of idealism rather than simple greed (I know it sounds completely naive nowadays, but the goal of achieving longlasting peace in Europe wasn't driven by greed, and was extremely ambitious).
France and Germany played an impulse on Europe, and often it was against their economic interests (Germany is by far the highest contributor to EU's funds, and Spain has recieved tons of money for its development when it entered the Union).

The new ambition of the French-German ticket isn't exactly about serving themselves, it is about moving the EU forward, although in the direction dictated by the 2 powers. Italy and Spain want to have their say in the way Europe is going. I don't think this power struggle is about money or self interests, but something deeper.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Drake : Remember the French-German ticket wasn't as self-serving as one would believe. Many European achievements of these last 40 years have been made because of idealism rather than simple greed (I know it sounds completely naive nowadays, but the goal of achieving longlasting peace in Europe wasn't driven by greed, and was extremely ambitious).
France and Germany played an impulse on Europe, and often it was against their economic interests (Germany is by far the highest contributor to EU's funds, and Spain has recieved tons of money for its development when it entered the Union).

The new ambition of the French-German ticket isn't exactly about serving themselves, it is about moving the EU forward, although in the direction dictated by the 2 powers. Italy and Spain want to have their say in the way Europe is going. I don't think this power struggle is about money or self interests, but something deeper.

At a time when US policy is being accused of being entirely self serving, and when the US govt is basically being accused of flat out lying, its difficult for an American not be eager to express cynicism about France and Germany.

Note how some here have looked for devious motivations for the 8 powers that signed today's letter - not possible that THEY are genuinely concerned about Iraqi WMD, the Iraqi people, and the credibility of the UNSC.

[Demerzel]

All this "Old Europe" crap from the Bush administration is just one more attempt to divide people into the you're with us ( "you're with the good guys" ) and the you're against us ( "you're evil" ).

I think that the comical thing is that all of a sudden the WoMD that Iraq is supposed to have is a must go to war issue when two years ago the USA didnt give 2 figs about it.

[Spiffor]

Germany and France clearly have a self-serving agenda, and they express it as any other EU country in the European Council, where all countries tweak European laws for their own interests. The opposition to war in Iraq was also clearly motivated by political interests (mainly to prove an international existence for these 2 countries, and to please the public opinion IMO)

However, I think the old French-German ticket wasn't "self-serving" in the meaning it wasn't oriented by pure greed (remember, I'm talking about the past here), and I think the renewed French-German ticket tries somehow to restore this ambition.
France and Germany express their greed in many other places, but not this one. There is a power struggle going on between former lesser countries and the 2 powers, which is about more than pure money or economical or short sighted interests. It is a struggle about who gets to decide the future of the Union.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Demerzel
All this "Old Europe" crap from the Bush administration is just one more attempt to divide people into the you're with us ( "you're with the good guys" ) and the you're against us ( "you're evil" ).

we're told over and over again we should be multilateral, and we should build a coalition. Why would they not jump at any sign that they DO have coalition partners???