"Natural" Medicine

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sandman
Two words: Placebo effect

That doesn't affect someone who's skeptical. If I take something thinking it's not gonna work, and it does, there's no placebo effect.

It also irritates me when advocates often criticise conventional medicines as working 'against' the body, whereas 'natural' medicines work 'with' the body.

Cold medications do, in fact, work against the body. The body has its own mechanisms for fighting off infection. These tend to make us miserable, and we take drugs not to help us fight off the infection but to supress our body's natural processes. Coughs, sneezes, fever, etc. all make us miserable, but also make less hospitible to pathogens. By supressing these symptoms, we can make ourselves more sick in the long run.

Generally speaking, people take herbal remedies for mild problems, but still go after the penicillin when they have pneumonia.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Japher
Que?

What do you believe "Organicly Grown" means? No pesticides at all? Only organisms?

No, I believe that it means a lot more than simply only that natural pesticides are used. It also has to do with fertilizers, harvesting methods, other methods of pest control (such as encouraging carnivorous bus), types of seeds, etc. Your statement left it at only being related to pesiticde use.

If you have a problem with Rotenone, you'll just love atrazine. Atrazine is one of the most widely used pesticides in the world. Problem is, it's killing off the world's amphibians (and God only knows what its doing to us). Even on top of the Swiss Alps (where it's not used), atrazine has been found in quantities of one part per billion (three parts per billion is the legally allowable level in US drinking water). In the Spring in Iowa the amount of Atrazine in ground water is 40 parts per billion. According to Discover magazine, there have been studies that show there is an increase in human birth defects among farm families who conceive in the spring (when most pesticides are applied).

BTW, organic farms use a lot less pesticides than their non-organic neighbors, even if Rotenone does kill fish.

[General Ludd]

Re: "Natural" Medicine

Originally posted by MrFun
Some of these "natural" medicines that are being sold as being completely safe, can cause heart attacks, stroke, loss of memory, and other serious health problems -- oh yeah, and death.

That can be said about most drugs on the market, natural or not.

[Provost Harrison]

The overuse of pesticides and herbicides is very concerning.

I am a stronger believer in pharmacology to provide us with the correct drugs. We can discover the active component, or develop a more refined one, or design one more appropriate to our needs. It strikes me as quite random...for the compounds that have a beneficial effect, you intake a large number which don't.

So I put my faith in pharmacology.

[Ozz]

Originally posted by Japher
One of the most common organic pesticides used in organic farming is Rotenone.

The most common is supposed be a hoe.
That's cheating, why not use curare and ipecac too.

Organically grown cherries with ipecac for the supermodel crowd, yum yum.

Poison is poison, regardless of the source.

Some hippie should smack you corporate fatcat farmers about the head with his hoe for this.

Good Threadjack though ;D

[Japher]

If you have a problem with Rotenone, you'll just love atrazine.

Yeah, I hate that stuff too.

BTW, organic farms use a lot less pesticides than their non-organic neighbors, even if Rotenone does kill fish.

and

That can be said about most drugs on the market, natural or not.

The point of the matter is that if something is labled "organic" or "natural" that really doesn't say a whole lot, and should be ignored.

In general "organic" or "natural" substance have a lot greater chance of creating irrepairable harm then do their "chemical" or "man-made" counterparts.

Your body is more likely to reject foreign bodies that are doing harm than other entities that are doing harm, yet the body sees as "natural".

To the same affect the earth is more likely to display immediate effects of a foreign body then it would of an "organic" body. An "organic" pollutant is more likely to take it's time to develop a problem, then, when it rears it's head it is too late to correct...

[Sava]

In medicine, the placebo effect does help some people...
do some of the natural medicines help in some cases? sure... are they wonder drugs? no...
do some people get better because they take something and think it will help despite the substance doing nothing? yes...

[Provost Harrison]

[Japher]

I agree Sava... If it makes you feel better then go for it, your sh** will always stink.

[Brizey]

Using the word "natural" or referring to other cultures is just a way the manufacturers of these products pander to people who feel left out by the mainstream medical industry.

BTW, I purposely used the words "manufacturers" and "products". In the end, these things are produced to make money, not to save you from the evil drug industry.

I agree with PH. I have no reason to believe that some naturally occuring compound is any safer or more effective than a more refined one. Humans can do better than nature.

The cold medicines Che spoke of are not targeted at the cold itself. They treat symptoms, not the disease.

Coughs spread disease, mucus provides a breeding ground for secondary bacterial infections, and fevers are generally ineffective against viral infections.

In the end, they just end up banning the ones that actually work (ephedra herbs?, creatine?) because they need to be regulated like drugs under the law.

[Japher]

evil drug industry

Which one is that? I work for them, and I see nothing evil about most of them.

[Provost Harrison]

Well creatine is just a metabolic intermediate...people seem to fill themselves with the strangest things. I used to know someone who used to take so many of these health pills that she literally had to drink them all, half filling a 330ml glass and downing them with water. Seriously, that girl had issues...and she must have rattled for hours in the morning

[Brizey]

Japher:

I was putting words into the mouth of a "natural" remedy peddler.

Whoever invented the new antihistamines (Allegra, etc.) is the least evil person in the world.

PH:

The point is that creatine works (trust me). Therefore it is a drug. Therefore it needs to be regulated under current US health laws. Ehpedrine is a stimulant. Ditto.

[Sandman]

That doesn't affect someone who's skeptical. If I take something thinking it's not gonna work, and it does, there's no placebo effect.

Nah. 'It' might have done nothing whatsoever, and you felt better anyway. If I started clapping every time it started raining, I might eroneously conclude that clapping constantly made it eventually stop raining.

Cold medications do, in fact, work against the body. The body has its own mechanisms for fighting off infection. These tend to make us miserable, and we take drugs not to help us fight off the infection but to supress our body's natural processes. Coughs, sneezes, fever, etc. all make us miserable, but also make less hospitible to pathogens. By supressing these symptoms, we can make ourselves more sick in the long run.

Not all drugs fight the symptoms, not the infectious agent. That's an unjustified generalisation.

As Brizey said, coughs and sneezes are the germs' doing, not part of our bodies immune system. It's how they spread. Fighting these symptoms will at least prevent others being infected, which is arguably more important than curing one individual.

Generally speaking, people take herbal remedies for mild problems, but still go after the penicillin when they have pneumonia.

I call them non-remedies for non-problems. The perfect money making scheme.

[MrFun]

Re: Re: "Natural" Medicine

Originally posted by Osweld



That can be said about most drugs on the market, natural or not.

Wow -- give yourself a cookie, Osweld.


My point is that natural medicines are doubly mis-leading if marketed the wrong way. It can lead ignorant people to assume that natural means safe or harmless.

Other drugs don't have that same potential to mis-lead.