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That future makes me want to purge my dinner, Ali.
Committed Democrats like Roh should not accept this future.
Committed Democrats like Roh should not accept this future.
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Last edited by DanS; February 2, 2003, 01:58.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891 -
Here's an NYT article about China's reactions (or inaction) wrt NK.
China could end up with a nuclearized SK and Japan, even as SK reunites with NK. You gotta wonder how China would view that possibility. And yes, I agree with the Chinese analyst that we alone could not stop this from occurring.
China needs to look toward its interests. Exports to the US represent over 1/10th of China's economy--and we can take at least 1/10th more. Exports to NK, less than 1/100th.
And it looks like China might make the Hungary bargain after all, at least with Japan.
And here's how much the tourism concession is worth...
Last edited by DanS; February 2, 2003, 02:31.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Either that, or Kim will be pressured into ushering in reforms and/or subdued by the Russo-Sino alliance. I doubt he'd be subdued by American rhetoric(he's already shown his belligerence), but perhaps by Russia and China. Both Russia and China still to some extent maintain their paranoid character, especially when it comes to the West, and while the US might continue it's hostile policy towards NK and vice versa, Russia and China might be willing to cede some concessions to NK, in the name of stability. Obviously, neither Russia or China want US forces too close to their borders for too long, because while all of them are in good business relations, they don't exactly see eye-to-eye on other issues, and all of the above still have hostile elements in their respective administrations/governments, who have been scarred, so to speak, by the Cold War.Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
And economic reforms would take far shorter time in NK than they would in China, simply through smaller populace and lesser land area.
I reckon that SEZs on the line of Shenzhen and Macau could potentially save NK. Once Kim relinquishes power (possibly through natural old age) then a new elite would rise, which would be half military and half economic.
Given another generation, the economic elite would hold most of the rulership.
This is pretty much how China tried to modernize whilst keeping political reform to a manageable (some might say minimal) pace. NK could potentially do it much faster and absolutely than China too.
I, myself, would advise the US to scrap its hostile policy towards NK. All of this(Iraq, Afghanistan, Balkan conflicts, etc) is just a little too much, and a little too close for comfort, for both Russia and China. America must understand that eventhough both Russia and China have went through some cosmopolitan changes, their objectives have largely remained static, and their attitude, while given some readjustments still remains hostile.
Thank you and goodnight.Comment
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Check out India's "untouchables." Maybe India is a democracy on the surface, but this BS has been going on for centuries. Supposedly they have the right to vote, but could they vote in actuality? I don't know.Originally posted by DanS
What about India?
It shows that political freedom can exist without prosperity. So your comment that "[o]nly economic prosperity will bring political freedom" is false. There are plenty of other dirt poor countries out there that are reasonably democratic.
As for other dirt poor "democratic" countries - how many of those have fair elections, mostly free from the influence of money and violence? If they don't, they aren't really democratic, no?(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."Comment
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That means you agreed with my previous post. The US won't care one whit unless it could get a friendly government to bring about a better geopolitical situation.Originally posted by Velociryx
UR: One word for why the US would care.
China.
Like it or not, *ready* or not....they're coming.
Their troubles at home won't be an infinite pool, and don't kid yourself....China has a long memory and plenty of territorial axes to grind.
Watch and see.
Chief among them, is that China WANTS the US out of the region. We're their own personal boogy man, and from the Chinese perspective, it is the US who is responsible for keeping China from flexing her muscles fully in the region.
-=Vel=-
With that out of the way, then, I see that letting DPRK implode is the way not to do it. It will get everybody in Northeast Asia to have this deep-seated hatred of the US. They aren't stupid, they could see this "help" in rebuilding no more than a bid to install a friendly government, so the North Koreans will say "bugger off," and you can kiss the base in RoK goodbye. The PRC will not be at all pleased, and you can be sure that they will play hardball in international politics against the US whenever it is possible.
Not wise.(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."Comment
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Oh, come on. You're going to insist India isn't a democracy? Cheap retort!
And the Carter Center certifies elections in dirt poor countries all the time. Your position doesn't stand up to even a couple minutes of scrutiny.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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What power vacuum? Korea would be stronger after reunification and would be still be an ally with the US. And Japan wouldn't stand a chance if there was a power struggle, the Koreans haven't quite forgiven them for WWII.Originally posted by DinoDoc
That might set up some interesting scenarios with China, Russia, and Japan as each compete for influence in the power vaccum left behind.Comment
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At the state level, the untouchables have had equality since Mahatma Ghandi's time. It only continues at the social level because of tradition. It's not really any different than the status of blacks in the US, they're equal but discriminated against.Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Check out India's "untouchables." Maybe India is a democracy on the surface, but this BS has been going on for centuries. Supposedly they have the right to vote, but could they vote in actuality? I don't know.Comment
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Korea would be stronger after reunification and would be still be an ally with the US.
They can either choose a nuclearized ally of the US or a non-nuclearized ally of the US. We're not funding the status quo. If they want the status quo supporting their interests, let them fund it themselves. NK isn't our love child. It's China's and Russia's.
They aren't stupid, they could see this "help" in rebuilding no more than a bid to install a friendly government
Well then quit b!tching and "help" them rebuild yourself. NK is China's underfunded liability.Last edited by DanS; February 2, 2003, 03:17.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Well, back when I was at Durham university, quite a few of my fellow students were overseas Indians - they all spoke very disparagingly about their nation's elections. They talked of "vote barons" who would be able to deal in the mass votes of largely illiterate voters by simply ordering them to vote for a given candidate.Originally posted by DanS
Oh, come on. You're going to insist India isn't a democracy? Cheap retort!
And the Carter Center certifies elections in dirt poor countries all the time. Your position doesn't stand up to even a couple minutes of scrutiny.
Of course, it's important to remember that these were overseas Indians so their socioeconomic background may be fundamentally different from their homebound peers, especially their political views.
But it's very dangerous to be too absolute about things.
As far as North Korea goes, I'm sorry if economic change in the line of China makes you sick. Personally, the idea of military action in Iraq creates a similar reaction in me. But we both have to look at things objectively and say "what alternative is there?" and "how effective would it be?"
If you want to go in bombing and blasting, then you have overlooked the repercussions on the people who have to live next door to your target."lol internet" ~ AAHZComment
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Well, back when I was at Durham university, quite a few of my fellow students were overseas Indians - they all spoke very disparagingly about their nation's elections. They talked of "vote barons" who would be able to deal in the mass votes of largely illiterate voters by simply ordering them to vote for a given candidate.
Yes, I understand. But by that token, Americans could all kvetch about the city of Chicago.
Yet we still know that America is reasonably democratic.
As far as North Korea goes, I'm sorry if economic change in the line of China makes you sick.
Economic change without political change does nothing for me. It's still man in bondage to the State. That's why I'm not too hip on China's progress, some minor experimentation notwithstanding.
I'm happiest to see how SK turned out. At least two credible parties that can govern. Democracy should have been introduced there much earlier. Sometimes the US doesn't fully appreciate how potent a weapon democracy is.
If you want to go in bombing and blasting, then you have overlooked the repercussions on the people who have to live next door to your target.
I don't want to do either. What made you think that I did? We should have a credible detterent.
I think China has to either reel in and support its client, do Washington's bidding on the matter, or do nothing and roll the dice on the consequences.
I think that the US should not deal with Kim Jong Il unless he gives up his nukes. If he doesn't, then I don't want to pay to prop up his regime. Further, we should refer this to the Security Council for discussion and/or action. But overall, we should just sit there and wait for him to fall, encouraging the eventuality through small measures.
I think that SK should be circumspect about what it gives NK, because it sends bad information to NK. Further, they should act principled in the matter and prepare for governing NK under a somewhat messy unification. If they want to continue the Sunshine Policy, they should do so on a limited basis, if only to help prepare for a fairly immediate reunification.
I think Japan should send the message to NK and China that if NK goes nuclear, so does Japan.
Lastly, NK should be our b!tch and heel.
That sums up my position.Last edited by DanS; February 2, 2003, 14:30.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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That is where our greatest disagreement lies. As long as we're talking about how well people are living, then economic condition is the single best way to measure the wellbeing of any nation.Originally posted by DanS
Economic change without political change does nothing for me. It's still man in bondage to the State. That's why I'm not too hip on China's progress, some minor experimentation notwithstanding.
What use is a "democracy" if it is simply a demagogic sideshow, a fiesta of extremist parties in rapid succession while the country goes down the drain? Okay, so "man is not in bondage to the State", but so? Try telling a starving man in India that he's "not in bondage to the State". I'm sure he'll be thankful.
Or how about Singapore? It's not a democracy, there's only one party that effectively governs. But the living standards of Singapore are among the highest in the world. In fact, the very reason those living standards exist is because the State kept the nation under control during the first turbulent 20 years. Singapore in 1970 was a wreck - a riot every day and a non-existent economy. We (Singapore) could have continued with that, with four hundred tiny parties attempting to fan the fury of their own supporters. I'm sure Singapore would still be some hellhole, like East Timor. Would you call that "freedom from bondage"?
Ultimately, democracy is an afterthought, it is the insurance that once a nation reaches economic affluence, it can stay there. In other words, democracy is the means to an end, not the end itself. It is always economic affluence that is the highest goal, because that is where the wellbeing of each citizen lies.Poor silly humans. A temporarily stable pattern of matter and energy stumbles upon self-cognizance for a moment, and suddenly it thinks the whole universe was created for its benefit. -- mbelleroffComment
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That is where our greatest disagreement lies.
Yep. We just don't see eye-to-eye on this one.
And consider that most in SK will not see eye-to-eye with you either. It is on the basis of this fact that I think they are acting contrary to their principles. It may mean nothing to you, but I expect it to mean a lot to an SKer.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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NK has the audacity to threaten the Sunshine Policy due to an inquiry into the cash payment to NK for the Sunshine Policy.
These guys are funny.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Why wouldn't they agree, though? I don't get what you mean by "acting contrary to their principles".Originally posted by DanS
And consider that most in SK will not see eye-to-eye with you either. It is on the basis of this fact that I think they are acting contrary to their principles. It may mean nothing to you, but I expect it to mean a lot to an SKer.
Yes, very funny.NK has the audacity to threaten the Sunshine Policy due to an inquiry into the cash payment to NK for the Sunshine Policy.
These guys are funny.
Though I'd say that they're attempting to piece together what little face they have in front of their affluent, successful southern neighbour.Poor silly humans. A temporarily stable pattern of matter and energy stumbles upon self-cognizance for a moment, and suddenly it thinks the whole universe was created for its benefit. -- mbelleroffComment
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