EU-US relations

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Pekka
guns make peace. Cows only makes people fat. Choice is obvious.

Yes, for world peace McDonalds should sell guns instead of burgers.

[Sandman]

The probem is, the reason archons. in the US can say: "who gives a damn about Europe" is that to them, diplomacy is a game of counting Bombers.

Militarising the EU will involves more than just upping spending. That's the easy part. It will radically redefine the entire concept of the EU. That's what these whiners don't understand.

The traditionally neutral countries of Europe must decide where their loyalties lie.

The assorted command structures must be united, eliminating the last vestiges of real state independence.

The generally pacifistic culture of the EU must become more militaristic. It's no longer united in peace, but united in war.

Of course that can´t be our goal. But more modern, more mobile forces are certainly. Maybe not for Britain, but Germany hadn´t even enough air transport capacity to transport its own peacekeepers to Afghanistan. A good part of the Bundeswehr has only crap as equipment. OTOH we store ca. 5000 Leopard tanks waiting for WWIII. I don´t say we should have everything the USA has, but our current forces aren´t much useful for conflicts today.

OF course that's sensible, but I doubt the Americans are going to stop complaining if the transport capability improves.

[DanS]

"of course the US doesn't want to see europe as equal."

Equality really isn't on the table. The EU would have to invest more than 4% of its economy in defense to catch up. We're having trouble even jawboning Europe to 1.5%.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Azazel
"Europe" is far from being a superstate, and until it is one, there is no way it could influence global politics in it's full force. Instead of one concentrated effort, you get 25 little arrows pointing in different, sometimes opposite directions.

I believe that is what is called 'dynamic leadership'.

[Tripledoc]

Ther is also one other reason that Europe is loath to remilitarize. Russia.

[mactbone]

Hmmm, interesting that we're basically debating whether the US would like to have a rival and how tha would balance things. I'm taking an internationl relations course (it focuses on the US's role) and it seems that there is a large contigent of people that believe a Bi-Polar world is much more enviable than a hegemonic or multi-polar. That's kind of what we're debating here. Should the EU become the other half? Are top offificials instigating this to make it natural that there are two worlds - the capitalist America which threatens and the socialist Europe which negotiates?

I don' think I'd go so far as to call it a conspirancy but it does appear that unless an Asian country is more successfull at influencing nations or Russia gets itself together, Europe is the only other place where there could be enough concerted effort at becoming a rival to the US. Not just a rival, but a rival with some chance at being at least if not more powerful.

[DanS]

Why on Earth would Europe be a rival? Haven't y'all heard about a division of labor? Teamwork. You know, an alliance?

We're trying to make this alliance credible.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Sandman


Militarising the EU will involves more than just upping spending. That's the easy part. It will radically redefine the entire concept of the EU. That's what these whiners don't understand.

The traditionally neutral countries of Europe must decide where their loyalties lie.

The generally pacifistic culture of the EU must become more militaristic. It's no longer united in peace, but united in war.

Europe has seen enough of war, that is what YOU fail to see.

The Union of Europe IS united in peace, that is the sole reason for the EU. It will not permit its union is going to be a union of war.

Thank god for all those traditional neutral countries in Europe that are keeping the large warmongering powers in check...

I don't see what is wrong with a European Union committed to peace and prosperity.

[Paul Hanson]

The fact that a lot of countries aren't committed to peace and prosperity sort of throws a spanner in that vision.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by germanos


Europe has seen enough of war, that is what YOU fail to see.

The Union of Europe IS united in peace, that is the sole reason for the EU. It will not permit its union is going to be a union of war.

Thank god for all those traditional neutral countries in Europe that are keeping the large warmongering powers in check...

I don't see what is wrong with a European Union committed to peace and prosperity.

Sorry, I think I misjudged the tone of my post. I do agree with you. The 'whiners' are the Americans who accuse Europe of not pulling having enough weapons. I'm just outlining some of the barriers to this.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Paul Hanson
The fact that a lot of countries aren't committed to peace and prosperity sort of throws a spanner in that vision.

I would say that since so many nations are committed to peace and prosperity the policies of aggression and domination have outlived themselves.

[BeBMan]

Not as long as there is aggression in reality. It would be nice to have peace everywhere, but that isn´t the case currently, and it will not change in the near future.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Paul Hanson
The fact that a lot of countries aren't committed to peace and prosperity sort of throws a spanner in that vision.

I don't see how and/or why So far the EU has a long histoty of avoiding any involvement in any conflict, so...?


Sandman: apparently I indeed misunderstood the tone of your post

[Paul Hanson]

The very point that I myself was just about to make. It's all well and good being peaceful, but when others aren't then sitting around twiddling your thumbs isn't really a realistic option.

[Jon Miller]

there seems to be differences between realists and idealists

I erpsonally think that US-EU relatships would be a lot better if you had a bigger military

just because we would respect you more

currently it is
EU whine
US ignore
UE act

relationship sours

if EU had military
EU disagree with US
US listen
US respond to EU

relationship holds

Jon Miller