Axis of Weasel!

[Pekka]

Also that would mean alliance with other countries.
It's cultural thing also, as we avoid making promises we can't keep, alliances etc. It goes all the way, down to personal level in everyday life, and business life also.
So if we make military alliance, I don't see us walking away from it.

[Chris 62]

Richelieu, it's immpossible for me to say how Finland would vote, seeing I know little about what the average Finn thinks.

However, France and Germany seem to have motivations outside of the scope of the UN and it's resloutions in reguards to Iraq, do you believe these motivations should not be mentioned, that France and Germany truley do believe in the inspection process, even when Hans Blix himself he could serch for years and find nothing.
Blix also says the Iraqis are hindering his teams at every turn, and certain areas of Iraq are off limits (military instellations this time, Palaces last time).

Could you tell me why the inspection teams should continue at a task that they themselves say is pointless?
Or why the Paris/Berlin axis also believes in these sham inspections?

[Pekka]

Richileu, to be more clear, we won't put ourselves into position where we can't do what is expected. You can laugh all you want, but it's like Japanese are nice to everyone, we do exactly like promised. We might take some things too literally sometimes, but the point is not getting yourself into that position. It's the tactics and mental state of small countries.

[Bereta_Eder]

As a sidenote, I forgot to mention that not only Germany and France want the EU to go forth.
Most countries/peopes do. Of course there are differences of opinions as to which course this integration should take.

[Japher]

France and Germany already got themselves invovled by interfering in US foreign policy through the UN to protect their own foreign policy.

They might want to give another suggestion on to what should be done in order to protect both of our intrests.

As did France and Germany, so will the US (only better): protect our interests in any way possible.

Doing nothing is doing something, especialy when others are doing something.

[GePap]

Paitkis is correct:

France and Germany are and will be the center of Europe. All those Eastern eruopean allies of Bush, who are allies because they see the US as being their champion vs. their much bigger neighbors (in terms of being bale to have the US lobby for them in EU issues, just as the Turks tried to use the US, but failed) combined have economies smaller than France, and less people than Germany. As for Spain and Italy, the conservative governments in rule feel safe to support Bush cause they are far away from election season.

In time, as EU integration gets tighter, and if it ever really becomes a more federal institution, the pul of Germany and France will only increase on these states. Only the UK is big enough to ignore the porcess long-term, though tht is unlikely.

As for the continuing of the military allience: it still has many uses: the US might always be the one that send in the troops, but all military actions have aftermaths and costs. Without France and Germany, the costs of cleaning up, peacekeeping and so forth would increase greatly for the US, specially since all those new allies simply don't have the money to take the place of Germany and France.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Chris, the Paris-Berlin Axis is what the EU was founded on.
It is its locomotive of integration.
They are the biggest states and have the most influence compared to other sub divisions in the EU.

That hardly seems equitable to the other states, so the smaller states must tow the "Franco-Prussian Line" so to speak in all things?

Their declarations may have angered the US but in the EU, as it is now, it is just expressing a general consensus the people have.
Thepeople are just not conveinced that there is a cause for war on Iraq.
I'm not expressing an opinion as to who is right or wrong, just stating what is going on here at this period.

That is interesting, seeing as France didn't ask the EU's opinion before sending forces to the Ivory Coast.
So, if it's a matter of France's former colonies, they can act without consulting the UN or the other EU members, but if it's a UN matter, they must consult the general feelings of the EU's various peoples?

[chequita guevara]

Why should we care whether or not Iraq is disarmed?

Why does anyone believe that this is really about disarming Iraq?

Why are otherwise intelligent posters (like Chris) so credulous when it comes to the foreign policy pronouncements of known liars?

Why should France and Germany have the same foreign policy as the US?


edit: fixing typos.

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW NATO is for the present, offering Europe what can be called as "free security".
So it is useful for the EU to keep it for the time being. That is why there is no "departures" from it even if grave differences exist.
For the moment it is beneficial to both the EU and US some could say.

Also France has interests in the region the US wants to attack.

Public opinion, human rights etc are unfortunately more or less a parameter to what is the main game here and this is national (or semi national in the case of the EU) interests.

There is an excellent book that clearly describes the interests of each country in that region but its in greek.
Im sure there are more.

Also bare inmind that the european peoples are not indifferent to whather American civilians could die from Iraq.
They just believe the American citizens are not under any threat from Iraq. It is not indifference in any respect.

[Chris 62]

Post some of it Paiktis, I'll translate it.

[Pekka]

Chris62, well.. we would have 2 options. To go with France and Germany. Or go with the US, Australia, UK etc. I think it's pretty obvious which way we would go.
Besides, we have already promised help rebuilding Iraq and sending peace troopers in.
Also Berlin-Paris axis is something we are little bit against of, since it's not driving our interests.
But it's easy, if we join and pledge our loyalty, we will go for it, no question about it. If we would go against it, then we would put ourselves in bad position as a small country. Easy choice.

[HershOstropoler]

"That hardly seems equitable to the other states, so the smaller states must tow the "Franco-Prussian Line" so to speak in all things?"

That's the usual exaggeration from the other member states. It's 2 countries out of 15, with about a quarter of weights in the Council and Parliament. They can take initiatives, their accord can shift the balance on disputed issues, but they can't force their will on the rest.

[Japher]

They just believe the American citizens are not under any threat from Iraq. It is not indifference in any respect.

They can beliecv whatever they want. Yet, unless they have been successfully brainwashed by US propeganda then they just don't, and won't, understand.

Why should we care whether or not Iraq is disarmed?

I don't know, they haven't told me that yet. IMO it is a combonation of many things including peace keeping efforts in the Mid. East which protect foreign interests including, yes, oil.

Why does anyone believe that this is really about disarming Iraq?

It's about a lot of things.

[quote]Why are otherwise inteeligent posters (like Chris) so credulous when it comes to the foreign policy pronouncements of known liars?[quote]

Why is the entire French and German governments? Why? Because they want to give everyone a shot at peace. Yet, they failed.

Why should France and Germany have the same foreign policy as the US?

No one has really indicated that the want everyone to share the same foreign policy. I could also flip this question to read why should the US have the same for policy as France and Germany?

We have to face it. If we want to go to war it will be only us.

[Japher]

They can take initiatives, their accord can shift the balance on disputed issues, but they can't force their will on the rest.

I think deep down inside you know that is not true.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by Japher


I think deep down inside you know that is not true.

I think that came from deep down inside right through your rear.

How would do they do it? Examples? Put up.