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  • France Vows To Block UN Resolution on Iraq War

    French Foreign Minister de Vellepin indicated yesterday that France would wage a major diplomatic fight, including possible use of its veto power, to prevent the U.N. Security Council from passing a resolution authorizing military action against Iraq. See this article in this morning's Washington Post.

    I am not particularly in favor of invading Iraq. We are currently playing diplomatic poker, and right now it appears that all we have in our hand is a pair of sixes. However, I find these comments disturbing on three grounds.

    Frist, a few months back we went through a protracted discussion at the UN about whether there needed to be an additional resolution before attacking Iraq. We reached some kind of tenuous agreement, and now it appears that the French have not moved one inch from their original position.

    Second, it appears that both the French and the Germans are not quite straight on their facts. According to de Villepin,
    "Already we know for a fact that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are being largely blocked, even frozen. We must do everything possible to strengthen this process."
    According to German Foreign Minister Fischer
    "Iraq has complied fully with all relevant resolutions and cooperated very closely with the U.N. team on the ground.
    I will be the first to admit that there is no smoking gun. However, the UN inspectors indicated there are large gaps in the Iraqi declaration; there is no accounting for materials known to be in their possession during the prior inspections; and three thousand pages of classified documents which appear to be responsive to the UN request were found in the home of an Iraqi scientist. Do de Villepin and Fischer know something that the rest of us don’t, and if so would they please share it?

    Lastly there is the question of timing. The Security Council resolution passed unanimously Nov. 8 gave Iraq "a last chance" to meet its obligations. now the French, Germans, and Chinese appear to indicate that the upcoming report should be regarded as a "new beginning" rather than an end to inspections. If so, why should the word of the UN Security Council be taken seriously?

    Colin Powell busted his ass to get the US to play ball with the UN. And what we appear to have for our diplomatic efforts is a failure of other parties to negotiate, a likely willful ignorance of the facts, and little reason to take the word of the UN Security Council seriously. If this is the case, many Americans will wonder why we should even bother.
    Old posters never die.
    They j.u.s.t..f..a..d..e...a...w...a...y....

  • #2
    Just saw DanS thread on this. Could the mods please kill this one? Thanks.
    Old posters never die.
    They j.u.s.t..f..a..d..e...a...w...a...y....

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    • #3
      Ming: Let this thread stay. The other one was partially ruined by Floyd.
      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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      • #4
        It's laughable that the whole country of France is eaten up with a rampaging case of the dumbass.
        Not surprising, just laughable.

        Hussein knows what's going down.
        Bush and Blair have their plans.
        Yet some of the people here, and apparently the country of France, think that decisions have yet to be made.
        What needs to happen, is to turn thoughts ahead, about things yet to be decided.
        Like relationships with China, Russia, and Japan; if that's even still up in the air.

        To keep talking about Iraq, is like shutting the barn door after the livestock is already out.
        Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
        "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
        He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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        • #5
          I am always trully amazed to see intelligent people on both sides of this debate, swallow hook line and sinker, the notion that this whole little debate has anything to do with WMD and terrorism: that somehow they are actually central to this crisis, and not simply excuses for everyone to avoid the real issues involved: US power and its role in the world today.

          How is Iraq a threat to anyone right now? Its military is very weak, while the military of all its neighbors has significantly imporved in the last 10 years. Even with WMD, it can't invade kuwait or SA without having to go to war with the US, and the of deterrence still holds, thus Iraq losses such wars. And as for Saddam giving WMD to terrorists , well, I find the notion so utterly laughable that that is all I will say about it. Why should the French, Russians, or Chinese worry about Saddam? What threat is he to them? Answer: 0. He is also a 0 threat to the US, but we have villified him (somehting he earned, but we have gone somewhat overboard) for 10 years, so he makes a fine scapegoat for the admin. to experiment over.

          So, we will be at war in a few weeks simply because the new ideologes in control of the White House have decided to make the US a "force for good". They think they can remake the ME with US military force: that once our great, unrivalled Hegemon power is unleashed, we can sweep away the evil, and remake the world in OUR (THEIR) image. This, of course, is a radical new way to use american power, the new "white man's burden" (call it the neo-conservative person's burden) that we 'have', to imrpove the world radically, to overthrow the old, stoggy, cautious world order with new amazing action. And what better place to start this new radical vision for the US, but Iraq? We are set up wonderfully to attack it, they are weak (how come Iraq and not N.Korea? this is why) and isolated, and recent history allow us to classify it as part of an ongoing action, not a brand new radical thing. (9/11 is both a catalyst for this new adventure, and a smokescreen for its actions)

          The thing is, of course, that most world governments sense this. MOst (if not all), are too weak to stop us. We wil, by force of will, force them to act with us. The UK (also facing a 0 threat from Iraq) has decided to tag along, in hopes of being able to temper US actions, to moderate events from within. The French, on the other hand, depend on the current world order for their status, and will fight to maintain it.

          I trully hope the French win: we will still go to war in a few weeks, there is no stopping that, but at least the political costs for Bush and Co. will go up, even if the war is a simple and quick, and clean, victory. Every bit is needed to make sure these guys remain our leaderrs for as short a time as possible.
          If you don't like reality, change it! me
          "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
          "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
          "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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          • #6
            That's why I could care less about the UN. I don't want the French determining our actions. Screw them.

            I mean it should be obvious that Saddam is just playing everyone, but the French just act stupid.
            "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
            "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
            "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

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            • #7
              Originally posted by GePap
              How is Iraq a threat to anyone right now?
              After September 11th, 2001 everything changed. You have a good argument... for September 10th, 2001. There are reports that al Qaeda got chemical weapons in Iraq.
              "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
              "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
              "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DuncanK


                After September 11th, 2001 everything changed. You have a good argument... for September 10th, 2001. There are reports that al Qaeda got chemical weapons in Iraq.
                Where? when? Why?

                I am sorry, but 'reports' such as those are hardly believeable. The very fact that the admin doesn't even mention Iraq and Al qaeda in the same sentence anymore is more than proof that even those most eager for war within the admin. know that to "link" these two is silly, since they have no proof.

                No, Iraq has not given WMD to Al Qaeda, and I have never found anyone able to make a reasonavble case why they ever would, under the current conditions.
                If you don't like reality, change it! me
                "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                • #9
                  No, but you're all ready to accept Hussein's reports.
                  Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                  "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                  He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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                  • #10
                    Ah, Sloww, your rabid jingoism is so darn CUTE! And very innovative as well!

                    I don't believe a word Saddam says, but I also don't think that it matters even if he is lying.

                    Can you come up with a reasonable scenerio, under which, given the current conditions, Iraq would give WMD to Al Qaeda?
                    If you don't like reality, change it! me
                    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Why not? Have they done 1 solitary thing that was outline by the beloved U.N. ?

                      Keep your cute remarks to yourself.
                      Boris might appreciate, I don't.
                      Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                      "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                      He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DuncanK


                        After September 11th, 2001 everything changed. You have a good argument... for September 10th, 2001. There are reports that al Qaeda got chemical weapons in Iraq.
                        Given that Al Queda was a sworn enemy of Hussein and sought to overthrow his regime with a religious fundamentalist one, I find this very doubtful. Any evidence? No, of course not. And I've not heard of a single report saying this. The Administration tried to link Iraq to September 11, and failed.

                        Linking Iraq to Sept. 11 is a snowjob, a blatant attempt by the administration to hoodwink America into accepting a war against a nation that hasn't acted aggressively against us and which poses us no material threat.

                        DanS:

                        Do de Villepin and Fischer know something that the rest of us don’t, and if so would they please share it?
                        I'd posit the same question to Bush and Co. They've been adamant about knowing things and having their own proof of this that or the other, but have been refusing to share that information with anyone else. I rather think it's like the list McCarthy supposedly kept in his briefcase.
                        Tutto nel mondo è burla

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SlowwHand
                          No, but you're all ready to accept Hussein's reports.
                          The burden of proof is on the accuser. Wars should not be fought on supposition.
                          Tutto nel mondo è burla

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SlowwHand
                            Why not? Have they done 1 solitary thing that was outline by the beloved U.N. ?

                            Keep your cute remarks to yourself.
                            Boris might appreciate, I don't.
                            I am glad you didn't appreciate it..that was it's point!

                            You seem to to realize what I think, so let me spell it out:

                            EVEN WITH NUKES, SADDAM HUSSEIN IS NOT A THREAT TO THE US, OR TO ITS ALLIES, BECAUSE IF HE WERE EVER TO USE WMD AGAINST THE US OR ITS ALLIES, SADDAM WOULD DIE, AND HE HAS SPENT THE LAST 30 YEARS TRYING NOT TO DIE. THERE IS NOTHING SADDAM HUSSEIN COULD DO CURRENTLY, TO THREATEN VITAL INTERESTS OF THE US. EVEN IF THE MOST ABSURD LINE OF EVENTS MEANT THAT SOMEHOW, FOR SOME REASON, SOME IRAQI GOT WMD INTO THE US AND KILLED 100,000 AMERICANS, THERE ARE STILL 280,000,000 LEFT TO KICK SADDAM'S ASS. WHICH IS WHY BUSH'S CURRENT LITTLE WAR IS WRONG: IT IS BASED SIMPLY ONA SET OF WRONG ASSUMPTIONS AND IMCOMPLETE ARGUMENTS. IT IS A WAR DRIVEN BY INCORRECT NEO-CONSERVATIVE RADICAL IDEOLOGY.

                            there...
                            If you don't like reality, change it! me
                            "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                            "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                            "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Was anyone expecting anything less from France?

                              I bet the US will secretly play hardball now, pass France a note along the lines of "You had a deal with Saddam, try collecting from him, not the guy we will put in charge of Iraq".
                              The French postion will change like magic, very similar to Putin's about face when presented with a similar scenario.

                              Germany is being consistant, and China is looking for some gain.
                              That's all the UN really is, I'll support you if you give me something.
                              The US does it, France does it.
                              We all know it, so we will now wait and see what is offered.
                              I believe Saddam because his position is backed up by logic and reason...David Floyd
                              i'm an ignorant greek...MarkG

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