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**orange** · January 15, 2003, 02:11

I mean...seriously now...

**Drake Tungsten** · January 15, 2003, 02:15

The Straight of Tsushima is over a hundred miles wide and has some of the most treacherous currents in the world. The English Channel pales in comparsion, yet we all know how effective a barrier that has been over the years. The fact that Japan has never been successfully invaded in its thousand year history seems to show that the sea journey is more difficult than you make out.

**ravagon** · January 15, 2003, 02:16

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

If it's such an easy jaunt, why was the Mongol fleet destroyed... twice?

In case you didn't realize this, they sailed through the Dragon's triangle. Its similar in both shape and function to the one off Bermuda.

**The Vagabond** · January 15, 2003, 02:21

Even if the Chinese discovered America, they didn't colonize it. Therefore the Columbus Day celebration is not in danger.

**Drake Tungsten** · January 15, 2003, 02:21

Originally posted by ravagon
In case you didn't realize this, they sailed through the Dragon's triangle. Its similar in both shape and function to the one off Bermuda.

I knew that!

**orange** · January 15, 2003, 02:22

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The Straight of Tsushima is over a hundred miles wide and has some of the most treacherous currents in the world. The English Channel pales in comparsion, yet we all know how effective a barrier that has been over the years. The fact that Japan has never been successfully invaded in its thousand year history seems to show that the sea journey is more difficult than you make out.

Irrelevant...we're talking about the ability of Chinese junks to reach the Americas.

The question was...

The Chinese certainly had ocean-going vessels of some type. Otherwise, how did Kubla Khan equip a fleet to invade Japan in the 1200's?

My assertion was that the Chinese didn't need "ocean going vessels" to make such a journey distance wise...they only needed ships which were able to hug the coast, and as Zheng He's voyages show, they certainly had that and then some.

**Drake Tungsten** · January 15, 2003, 02:25

Don't sweat it, orange; I'm just messing with you. I like to show off my pointless knowledge of geography now and again.

**orange** · January 15, 2003, 02:27

a fellow geography whiz?

So this is what it's like...when doves cry...:sobs:

**Dinner** · January 15, 2003, 02:30

Originally posted by orange
the distance between the Korean peninsula and the south coast of Japan (where his fleets were headed) is hardly a voyage...

The distance is short plus there are a few islands between the Korea and Japan. A person can just island hop until they get to Japan plus the sea of Japan has very calm seas compared to sailing the open oceans.

**orange** · January 15, 2003, 02:36

hell, using some of those islands, you could build a bridge linking Japan to Korea today!

**Drake Tungsten** · January 15, 2003, 02:42

hell, using some of those islands, you could build a bridge linking Japan to Korea today!

There's actually been discussions about doing that, IIRC. It would be extremely expensive, but maybe possible.

**orange** · January 15, 2003, 02:45

expensive yeah, but certainly possible...

ok, back to the topic: did China discover the New World and circumnavigate the globe or not? Answers people I want answers!

**Berzerker** · January 15, 2003, 03:13

wernazuma -

Columbus also overestimated the extent of Asia to the east.Weird conjectures. Piri Reis didn't say, Columbus had a copy of that map. He said he had a map from Columbus!

I got my info from "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings", and I think Hapgood said Piri Re'is claimed Colombus had a map like his, not that he got a copy of Colombus' map. But either way, the Re'is map does show parts of the Atlantic Colombus didn't sail to, so I'm not sure how Colombus mapped the Antarctic and S American (below the Amazon) coastline and gave Re'is a copy a few years later.

The "nobles" or better said scholars at the University of Salamanca thought in Aristotelian patterns, not in Ptolemaic. They were right, Columbus not, but it wasn't because they had the correct data - most of them thought that our globe wasn't terraqueous, but a combination of a smaller sphere of earth and a larger sphere of water where only a bit of the earth-sphere rises like an island - thus they expected larger distances.

Umm...okay.

The balance theory has not been invented by modern scholars, but has a tradition that reaches well into antiquity. It is nothing but a myth that the Terra Australis Incognita on Piri Reis map differs much from that on other prior maps and they're not at all "astoundingly accurate", take a closer lookm and compare with you atlas at home, it's not even close!

The only, or should I say, main problem with Re'is map was it showed S America connected to Antarctica. But I've seen a map showing Antarctica as it appears under the ice sheet. The continent is actually divided into 2 sections on the map and that is how the continent appears according to sub-glacial mapping. There is another map showing the Bering land bridge, but you'll have to check out Hapgood's book to see these maps. But why would modern scolars use mythical claims of a southern landmass to balance the world to rationalise these maps?

Even more stupidities.

Can't anyone here have a civil discussion without insulting people?

Don't know about the statues

Then why is it a "stupidity"?

but simlar claims are made every decade and generally don't get far.

It takes alot to change the consensus.

In 100-200 AD, there were no Aztecs living in central Mexico for another 1000 years.

But the Aztecs did come after the Toltecs who either built or succeeded the builders of Teotihuancan which does date to that period. The Aztecs undoubtedly borrowed artifacts they found from prior civilizations. The Aztec religion contains relics of Toltec religion and presumably, Toltec religion borrowed features of older cultures.

I don't know in which temple this should have been burried, but NOT in an Aztec temple (Aztecs: 1350-1500AD).

I'd have to check, but I believe it was a temple unearthed in Mexico City back around WWII.

Anyhow, Nowhere it is said that Quetzalcoatl came across the ocean, Kukulcan supposedly came to Yucatan with ships from the Mexican East Coast .

There are several legends about Quetzalcoatl, are you familiar with them all?

The Aztecs didn't call the eastern sea "atl". Atl gererally is the word for water and the "tl" is only the ending of all nouns, thus water is essentially "a"! Duh!

It is true the word for water is "atl", but the word for water comes from the eastern sea.

About that "Votan"-God I haven't heard a single word, although I know a couple of them.

If you see a list of Mayan deities, even one without Votan, you'll see the nature of the language. Votan is unique among the names of their deities.

**The Mad Monk** · January 15, 2003, 03:34

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

the distance between the Korean peninsula and the south coast of Japan (where his fleets were headed) is hardly a voyage...

If it's such an easy jaunt, why was the Mongol fleet destroyed... twice?

Brave warriors...fine horsemen...sucky sailors.

**Sikander** · January 15, 2003, 05:28

God, I thought this was another EU forum for a minute, but it's worse than that. Bring on Erik Von Daniken!

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Chinese Discovery America in 1421

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