Is Third World Democracy a bad thing?

[raghar]

Originally posted by Hueij
And this is utter bull****

You sure about it?
On Jamaica must be realy hot weather. There is something like -15 or so. I had more FREEDOM in totalitarian state than in democracy.
So.
Now you know. (I think you'd dislike this answer somehow.)



To moderators: Nice smilies.

[Berzerker]

Tyranny of the majority is not a moral substitute for tyranny of the minority.

[The Vagabond]

The first line of your signature is nasty, LoA. May I ask you to remove it as a personal favor?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

mmmm ok.

[The Vagabond]

Thanks, LoA

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
.. In part because India's population is growing twice as fast as China's

... which also begs the question, why isn't China's population growing so fast?

[OzzyKP]

It is a very interesting point to make, I saw and op-ed in the Washington Post the other day that discussed it (probably by the author). I think the premise is right that we can't force democracy or free-markets on these countries. We should lead by example and hopefully people all over the world will realize the benefit (and yes, free-market democracies are the best way to go) of these institutions.

However I'm not sure how accurate the author's connectons are. Jewish minorities have dominated European economies for centuries in situations much different than the current third world situations the author describes. Even in feudal monarchies this led to ethnic hatred and terrible stuff, so the fact that its happening now in emerging free-market democracies isn't necessarily new.

It is certainly an interesting point to think about.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
... which also begs the question, why isn't China's population growing so fast?

Because they have an oppresive communist dictatorship that suspended all rights to one's reproductive choices t control population.

[Berzerker]

... which also begs the question, why isn't China's population growing so fast?

Forced abortions.

I don't see markets and trade as the problem, in fact, the lack of markets and trade is one of the problems. Democracy is another when democracy includes unrestrained majority rule. If the reason markets and trade is a problem, it's because the have nots are envious of the haves - too bad. My inability to make alot of money is not an excuse to prevent others from making alot of money.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
It is a very interesting point to make, I saw and op-ed in the Washington Post the other day that discussed it (probably by the author). I think the premise is right that we can't force democracy or free-markets on these countries. We should lead by example and hopefully people all over the world will realize the benefit (and yes, free-market democracies are the best way to go) of these institutions.

That is the problem though. Russia "realized" the "benefits" of a free-market democracy, and look what's happening to them.

China took free-market reforms slowly and democratic reforms even more slowly (if at all). "Realization" isn't everything - it is often catastrophic. Methodical implementation is key - and that doesn't involve switching to the "best" system overnight.

And if any of you is willing to tell me why China should discontinue the One Child Policy, I'd be happy to listen.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
And if any of you is willing to tell me why China should discontinue the One Child Policy, I'd be happy to listen.

Because it is the people's right to have whatever kids they want. It is inhuman to point a gun at someone and tell them what they can and cannot do with their lives. Especially something as basic as reproduction.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Because it is the people's right to have whatever kids they want. It is inhuman to point a gun at someone and tell them what they can and cannot do with their lives. Especially something as basic as reproduction.

No one has a gun pointed at them. They just have to deal with some rather stringent economic realities if they choose to have more than one child.

I have an alagory for libertarian morality. You have ten people on a boat. Each of them owns a specific portion of the boat. One person decides he wants to drill a hole in his section. According to libertarian morality, not only should he be able to do so, but it would be wrong for the other nine to try and stop him. The world is just a very large boat.

[OzzyKP]

So how exactly is the one child policy implemented and enforced?

btw how is having children like drilling a hole in a boat? Sure too much population may be a problem, but gosh it looks like the west is handling it nicely through voluntary individual decisions.

[el freako]

It seems that most people think that the benefits of democracy, or even more basic a representative government, should flow through quickly into improved wealth and civic society.

It took around a century for the benefits of Britian's representative government to flow through after 1688 and around the same time gap was evident for the US after 1784.


Democracy almost never emerges on it's own (you only have to look at history to see that this is the case), it can emerge from military conquest of a democracy over a despotism (as after WW2) or through the example of other systems (as france and britian in the 19th centuries showed).


To anyone interested in this I can strongly recommend the book "Power and Prosperity - outgrowing communist and capitalist dictatorships" by Mancur Olsen

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


No one has a gun pointed at them. They just have to deal with some rather stringent economic realities if they choose to have more than one child.

Originally posted by OzzyKP
So how exactly is the one child policy implemented and enforced?

It depends. National policy simply states, "China's population must be controlled," and some vague estimates of how China's population will be this-or-that by the year X. How these quotas are fulfilled is left to local officials.

In the cities, where control is tighter, the government often has great control. In the past, when most people were employed by the government, this could be serious economic and social consequences if you tried to have more kids. Nowadays with more and more people employed by private and/or foreign firms who couldn't care less, I'd say that it's not so tight. But still, there would probably be serious consequences when it comes to social benefits, etc.

I was pretty surprised to learn recently that in the countryside, the enforcement can be pretty lax! But the countryside is vast and you never have any idea what peasant cadres are doing. That's probably where all the stories of forced abortions are coming from - but I personally know a girl who has 4 siblings sitting at home. Ah well, the countryside is chaos.

Finally, the law isn't enforced on non-ethnic Chinese.

I have an alagory for libertarian morality. You have ten people on a boat. Each of them owns a specific portion of the boat. One person decides he wants to drill a hole in his section. According to libertarian morality, not only should he be able to do so, but it would be wrong for the other nine to try and stop him. The world is just a very large boat.

If you have never been to China, you might not appreciate how BAD the population growth has become. The streets are clogged, CONSTANTLY, and I'm talking about weekends and holidays. The pollution being belched out has colored the sky the shade of grey goo. And it's not just that - of approximately 900 million peasants, at least a third are milling in the cities to work (or trying to find work), and there's probably a few more million (ten million? hundred million?) who've been laid off by stagnant government businesses trying to privatise.

I have more anecdotes if you want, about how I spent about 20 minutes trying to get from the third level to the second level of the pagoda at Hanshan Temple, Suzhou, China. OMG. The stairs were creaking and I was paranoid that the weight would cause the pagoda to fold in upon itself. OMG.

If population growth rate allowed to go on unimpeded, China will implode in ten years. It's that simple.