Marx and Star Trek

[Kropotkin]

As a side note this was not exacly the kind of thread one would suspect from you. Nice to see that there's stil room for suprises in this dismal world of ours to spice things up.

[GePap]

As a side note this was not exacly the kind of thread one would suspect from you. Nice to see that there's stil room for suprises in this dismal world of ours to spice things up.

From me? what?

I start a very ecclectic number of threads: look up those thread I have begun, and you will see they are all over the board. I think it is an interesting theoreticl question, what the economics of plenty would look like.

And as of yet, no inkilngs of theoretical models proposed.

[Adam Smith]

Originally posted by GePap
What would be the economics of time, exactly?

How to allocate scarce time among various activities to best achieve what you want. Eg., work for current income, or go to school for future income. Alternatively, consider that the price that you pay for a good is not just the monetary price of the good, but also the value of the time it takes to buy it. For example, I often buy things quickly over the internet, rather than taking a long trip to the mall. Gary Becker (University of Chicago) won a Nobel prize in part for working out the implications of time in economics. (edit: Thorstein Veblin, The Harried Leisure Class first raised the issue in 1919 or so.)

As for the other issues you raise, I have no idea.

edit: spelling

[GePap]

I never met Becker..but many of his students did not sound very impressed.. anyway.

Look at the examples given: due to the replicator, the time I use to get any good, is the time the replicator takes (perhaps things are instantly made), so that much of these questiosn of time no longer exist (and with transpoters, movement is perhaps just as easy).

Now, would we still have to pay for the goods? Pay for the formulas to replicate somehting? Could I 'buy' and apple formula once, for ever, and then be able to make apples all the time? Or would I have to buy the formula for the apple every time (imagine the replicator is connected to some far away storage of info so that I have no local memory for the dtat but must get it from this central warehouse) Could not this plenty lead to an even biggers divide of the haves and have nots? I mean, why assume that everyone coul;d afford a house replicator, and those that have one would have significant advantages of life over those that didn't.

Does no one want to hypothesize?

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by GePap
Could I 'buy' and apple formula once, for ever, and then be able to make apples all the time?

Just get the formulae from P2P networks.

[Imran Siddiqui]

For example, I often buy things quickly over the internet, rather than taking a long trip to the mall.

Well remember, when you go to the mall, you get the good right away, as opposed to waiting for delievery, so I'd say the oppertunity costs are about the same.

[axi]

Marx is studied today not because he is a theoretic of communism, but because he is a theoretic of capitalism. His actual study was of capitalism, while communism remained solely in the realm of possibility for him. Our knowledge of communism is inadequate, that's why we try to learn by trial and error.

As for Star Trek, I do not watch it, but isn't it reasonable that fancy equipment like replicators are only available in spaceships and are not for general use?

[Jules]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

For example, I often buy things quickly over the internet, rather than taking a long trip to the mall.

Well remember, when you go to the mall, you get the good right away, as opposed to waiting for delievery, so I'd say the oppertunity costs are about the same.

And then there's the cost of shipping, which probably is greater than the monetary costs of traveling to the mall. However, Adam Smith's decision to shop online depends also on his preferences. I'm guessing he prefers the peace and quiet of online shopping verses crowded shopping malls and waiting in long lines.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Which is why I said oppertunity costs are about equal .

[Cyclotron]

The problem with selling food patterns is that you would probably end up with some Napster/Kazaa type food piracy community, like Foodster or something. I think that such patterns would inevitably leak and people would be able to eat whatever they want.

In fact, that's probably why restaurants like that of Sisko's father are still successful in the Star Trek world: food prepared and cooked by hand cannot be replicated, so truly unique dishes could only be experienced at restaurants. Perhaps most staple foods would become available by replicator, while delicacies or variations on the basic foods would be only available by restaurants with monopolized or secret recipies.

[The Mad Monk]

It has been mentioned before in the series that replicated food tastes distinctly inferior to real food. If that is the case, one may assume that a similar dicotomy exists between other products and their replicated counterparts. So there is probably at least a small economic system for 'hand-made' luxeries.

[Kropotkin]

One starts to wonder if those large spaceships they fly around in are made by replicators to...

[Buck Birdseed]

Marxism continually tends to throw up interesting theorists from its limited economistic base for some reason (who are then immediately branded iconiclasts by the trots, of course ) I mean, look at someone as incredibly fundamental to modern thought as Gramsci.

[Tripledoc]

Re: Marx and Star Trek

Originally posted by GePap
How could the Ferengi continue to use species (Latinum) as currency? Why has no unscrupolous (ie. any) Ferengi simply replicated tons of the stuff, thus making it worthless?

Someone mentioned the time factor as on inhibiting force on inflation. However I think there is also the space factor. If we say that ferengi currency is indeed capable of replication, then it would only achieve a state of worthlessness if the currency area was limited on the horizontal plane (in this case the area is perhaps spherical) by borders, and vertically by the number of consumers. Since space is practically limitless in area ,and presumably inhabitants, the socalled optimum currency area would never be reached. Socalled 'globalization' would not set in.
In fact the motivating factor behind their 'greed' is that they do indeed replicate tons and tons of currency triggering inflation. The resultant internal distabilisation as prices soar, is offset by expanding their monetary bloc continuously which in turn deflates the currency.
Also as each world sees prices go up they naturally also raise taxes, pulling the currency out of circulation - these are then put into vaults for 'safekeeping'. The various planetary govenors might full well know what is going on, but they might consider playing along if their miltary hardware is not sufficient to facilitate aggression against the ferengi.

An historical analogy is of course the rise of Athens. Using slave labor to work the mines of Laurion they were able to import grain in exchange for silver. Their monetary bloc expanded to encompass the western Mediterrenian basin until when from around 550 to 500 the rise of the Persian empire meant that future monetary expansion would have to penetrate that entity. The Persian empire began to take silver out of ciculation in the form of tribute which was dug down in the Palace at Persepolis. But to no avail since the Babylonian economy was insatiable and athhenian coin was in much demand So war erupted...

When Alexander the Great later razed Persepolis and handed out the hoard of silver there it immediately triggered hyperinflation.

Remember Oresme's Law 'bad money drives out good'.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by axi

As for Star Trek, I do not watch it, but isn't it reasonable that fancy equipment like replicators are only available in spaceships and are not for general use?

YES. In fact, ON at least one occasion, Picard's Brother's family is noted to "Not have a replicator". There are still restraunts and stuff on Earth.

The Federation is a Communist society, or at least very close to one. Everyone is "Equal" but some are more equal than others.

As for it being a Democracy....well, in the DS9 episode with the Coup everyone is talking about, the Coup Plotters manage to order all media outlets closed. That is not indicative of a free society.