Are unions still valuable? Were they ever?

[Kontiki]

The more I look at labor unions, at least in North America, the more I think they are passed their prime. I think they played an invaluable role back in the days of robber barons in establishing worker's rights, but today I think these rights are well enough established by labor laws that they are unlikely to be repealed. This isn't to say that I don't think unions do some good, but rather that on balance, they are detremental. I think that most have become massive bureaucracies that are more interested in maintaining their own power position rather than actually doing what is best for their members.

Discuss.

[MRT144]

i do think they are past their prime but im part of one and i think it serves a good purpose. they provide me with dental medical and vision plans at low cost. also they worked to get me a wage increase after working for the compant for 3 months.

but yeah, they dont have the same impact they used to.

[Jac de Molay]

depends on the union. Manufacturing unions like UAW are definitely on the skids, but building and skilled machine unions are as strong as ever, as well they should be.

[Dis]

I think it depends on the union as well. My brother is in the maintenance engineers union. I have been trying to get into that one. But after the test and interview I still only end up like 30 on the list. I need to get into the top 25 to get a job.

But that is a good union. Very responsible. Not very corrupt from what I can tell.

Basically I still do feel unions are important despite the corruption. You have to come to Las Vegas to really see the effects. More and more places are going non-union to save money. They pay their workers low wages.

Then you have walmart moving in with their superstores. Our cashier's union faught that, but they only stalled walmart. Walmart cashiers are non-union and get paid less than other supermarket cashier's. Although walmart claims their cashier's get good benefits. I can't say for sure, I have never worked there.

[chequita guevara]

Unions, problematic as they are, still serve a purpose. If you want to know what life would be like in the US without them, consider that in the states in the US where unions are the strongest, wages are higher, productivity is higher, crime is lower, job security is not only higher, there are more jobs, life expectency is longer, people have better retirements, etc. Then look at the "right-to-work" states.

Even non-union people benefit from having unions around, because union companies set the standards that other companies have to match, and non-union companies will give better contracts to keep from having workers organize.

Unions have a lot of problems, but since the boss has all the power, your only protection as a worker is to be either irreplaceable or organized. No-one is irreplaceable forever. Only organization gives you the ability to stand up to the boss on equal terms.


Let's put it another way, if unions weren't still valuable, companies wouldn't spend millions and millions of dollars to keep them out.

[Capt Dizle]

I agree with Che. Fancy that.

[chequita guevara]

Don't feel bad, even a stopped clock is right twice a day (by which I'm refering to you, because I'm always right. ).

[Capt Dizle]

Che, give me a break. You would faint if you got within pissing distance of the right.

[chequita guevara]

Okay, which arm? arty:
Sorry, I'm in a good mood right now, knowing that I'm not gonna be homeless!!!!





My ferret of doom laughs at you.

[Kontiki]

I agree that it depends on the union, and, by extension, your line of work.

I used to work for a bank a few years back that was/is struggling with unionization. Some branches actually joined the union (CUPE, IIRC). The union was trying to organize a drive in the branch I worked at (and subsequently left, for unrelated reasons). The general feeling was that it shouldn't go throught, and I personally never would have voted for unionization, nor would I have joined if it came to pass. In my situation, I only saw big drawbacks to unionization - I was young, pretty new to the company, and desitined to move up fast via my own merits. After having worked there for less than a year, I was already in a supervisory position and looking for another promotion (which I ended up getting and which moved me to another branch). Had the union come in, at least at that branch, all that would have been quashed since I lacked seniority. Also, I wouldn't have been able to get promoted to another unionized branch since the union rules stipulated that all first rights of promotion had to come from within the union, and only from outside if no one else could be found. It wouldn't have mattered if I was better than a unionized employee, as long as they could feasibly do the job, they would get it before me.

I can see how if you belonged to, say, the IBEW, it could be a good thing since you may well not be working for a large company, and where individual performance in relation to your co-workers wasn't as big an issue.

[chequita guevara]

Unions are about security, about having a say in the rules at the workplace, not advancement. You may think you're better off without a union, and that may be the case, but most people are not, because most people are average, ordinary people. When you need to deal with the boss, you are in a much more secure position with the rest of the work place behind you than on your own, no matter how good you think you may be, cuz guess what, there's always someone better than you. No one is indispensible forever. If you are that important, and you use that as leverage against the company, they'll find a way to replace you.

[cavebear]

Labor Unions were once the only hope of improvement of the working class. Then they became a drag on the economy and competitiveness. Then they became scams to support some incompetant workers so they couldn't be removed no matter how useless they were.

But the pendulum is starting to swing back to unions having real value again. Right now, they can be valuable again.

[Adam Smith]

Just a couple comments, because I don't have time to get into another econ thread right now...

Chegitz:

Unions, problematic as they are, still serve a purpose. If you want to know what life would be like in the US without them, consider that in the states in the US where unions are the strongest, wages are higher, productivity is higher, crime is lower, job security is not only higher, there are more jobs, life expectency is longer, people have better retirements, etc. Then look at the "right-to-work" states.

And joining a union cures acne? Not all or even most of the difference can be attributed to unions. I think there are a few contemporaneous facotrs which you have not taken account of.

Unions are about security

The flip side of this is that they slow technical change. Consider the railroad unions. For decades they required six man crews, when only two people were needed. They also imposed six years of severance pay if their members were laid off. These sorts of conditions nearly bankrupted the railroad industry, and lead to the growth of much less environmentally friendly truck transportation.

Unions can be helpful when there are monopsony conditions (workers only have one possible employer). This can often be the case in developing countries, where there is not much geographic worker mobility. Numerous studies have found that workers in the US do not face monopsony conditions (eg., the "U-Haul" index of economic conditions), so this does not apply in the US.

[orange]

absolutely! A Union working together can work to further the good of every individual in it. It can lobby for better conditions and pay. It's good to have people who will go to bat for you if you're getting shafted, especially by a powerful corporation.

[Zkribbler]

Unions are about equal bargaining power.

For twelve friggin' years, I was a "temporary" employee, and--because we were only temporary--we were the lowest paid in California. Management tried to fire one woman because she went on maternity leave. When she pointed out that was illegal, they took her back and then fired her for disloyalty when they discovered she was looking for another job.

I had one foot out the door myself when I realized that, if I left without changing the system, it would never get any better. Instead of quitting, I contacted the organizing section of a union.

After nearly a year of organizing, our new local was certified. After another a year of bargaining (read "stalling"), we got a contract recognizing us as permanent and got the biggest percentage raise ever given to non-managment personnel. (I don't think we'll ever be able to match the 75% raise management gave to itself.)

As a result, last summer I went on my first vacation in 15 years, and I'm currently thinking about buying a house.