A Question (or two) for Fascists...

[chequita guevara]

Berserker, in a liberatarian society, could an individual simply set up shop down river from a community and begin polluting the heck out of the river that serves as it's water supply? No, at least not without compensation (though one wonders how you compensate someone for destroying their source of drinking water). Thus, the good of society triumphs over the good of the individual.

BTW, the Declaration of Indpendence also refers to the rights of "a people" to alter or abolish their government should it become destructive to their individual rights. The DoI recognizes the exitence of collective rights.

[Az]

. remember corruption is ripe in Israel

corruption exists in Israel, but Israel is by far not one of the most corrupt states on the planet. It's ranked 17th or 19th in worldwide studies.

So far, tripledoc, I see nothing more than rethoric.

[Berzerker]

chegitz -

Berserker, in a liberatarian society, could an individual simply set up shop down river from a community and begin polluting the heck out of the river that serves as it's water supply? No, at least not without compensation (though one wonders how you compensate someone for destroying their source of drinking water). Thus, the good of society triumphs over the good of the individual.

No, under a libertarian system we don't have a right to pollute other people's property. That isn't the collective trumping the individual, it's the individual's property rights trumping polluters. Change your scenario a bit, the collective pollutes an individual's property. Under fascism, the collective can get away this, but not in a libertarian system.

BTW, the Declaration of Indpendence also refers to the rights of "a people" to alter or abolish their government should it become destructive to their individual rights. The DoI recognizes the exitence of collective rights.

Explain how a right to pursue happiness (DoI) can be interpreted as a collective right when people don't agree on what makes them happy? The freedom of speech is another of those rights, is that a collective right or an individual right? What about religious freedom? Is that a collective right or individual? Can the collective decide what religion you will practice? The Founders did not speak of rights as belonging to a collective, just individuals. The "right of the people" to abolish a government that is destructive of individual rights is still the right of the individuals to abolish that government. Referring to a group of individuals as "people" doesn't change the nature of the rights of those individuals. When we say the people voted, we understand that voting is an individual right.

[chequita guevara]

Freedom of speech, religion, etc., are not in the DoI, but in the Bill of Rights in the Constitution. How do you explain the "right of a people to alter or abolish" their government. That can in no way be in individual right, but only a collective right.

[Berzerker]

chegitz -

Freedom of speech, religion, etc., are not in the DoI, but in the Bill of Rights in the Constitution.

And you don't think liberty and the pursuit of happiness include freedom of speech and religion?

How do you explain the "right of a people to alter or abolish" their government. That can in no way be in individual right, but only a collective right.

Why? They were speaking of a specific right to abolish a government that destroys individual rights. "The right of the people" to be secure in their possessions (4th Amendment) is an individual right, yet it uses the same terminology found in the DoI. The 9th Amendment refers to rights retained by the people, basicly the same phrase, and the 2nd Amendment uses the same phrase again, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". They were consistent, your interpretation would mean they were inconsistent.

[orange]

Originally posted by red_jon
So what type of state would Speer want?

better question: What type of state would want Speer?

[Al B. Sure!]

Corruption is not a hallmark of fascism, though ever fascist state was certainly corrupt to the core.

I never said corruption was a hallmark of fascism... I simply said that Trujillo and what not were fascists but were corrupt fascists, not that fascism is inherently corrupt. And I don't think there is evidence that Hitler was corrupt. He apparently did not swindle money, did not use taxes for his own purposes, etc.

Too say that Trujillo modeled his policies after Franco and Mussolini is meaningless. Eisenhower modeled some of his government policies after Hitler, i.e., the Interstate system was modeled on Hitler's Autobahn.

Nevertheless, Eisenhower did not outright say he was using fascist gov't policies nor did he outright say he was a fascist.

By that definition, Hitler should have abolished every powerful group, i.e., the Army, the Air Force, the SS

The SA was disbaned prior to Hitler's complete rise to power. It was a threat to his becoming the fuhrer... he would never abolish those groups such as the army and SS that were roughly under his command anyway once he came into power...


Orange:

I'll answer your stupid question...

first off, rap music is a music of the masses. It is traditional in that it is rhymed verse... it is easily memorized and easily recited by people (with no need for instruments, etc.)... it is easy to understand without any false intellectualism... it has a simple rhythm and beat...

in many ways, rap actually fits the criteria for good art put forth by the nazis. the Nazis believed that art existed for consumption by the masses and must not be intellectual. furthermore, rap is the music of the common man and not of the bourgeious intellectuals which the nazis obviously hated.

In this utopia you described however, there would be no need for rap or at least it would be VERY different. Why would anyone talk about inner city troubles when there are none? Rap instead would be chanted, easily understood and learned rhymes about the glory of the nation or some ****...


thanks

[orange]

you didn't answer my question.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Azazel

corruption exists in Israel, but Israel is by far not one of the most corrupt states on the planet. It's ranked 17th or 19th in worldwide studies.

So far, tripledoc, I see nothing more than rethoric.

Then the world is exceedingly corrupt. (it probably is) Try and do a goggle search on 'Sharon' and 'corruption'. It is good that the Israeli newspapers try and do something about it. However, I doubt if anything will come of it. Pull yourself together Israel and kick that man out of office, he is up to nor good. When you are done with him you can pass him on to the war crimes tribunal in the Hague.

[Az]

ermm, I know what's going on. I live here. The latest report makes me rise my eyebrow, though. It has been published by a left leaning newspaper, about 2 weeks before the elections. This smells fishy, The whole story is about Sharon alledgedly getting a bribe, but this bribe is from a man who has been friends with Sharon from 48' when that man, a jew, has served together with Sharon in the army. I don't think this constitutes a bribe, esp. with that guy having no bussiness in Israel. I am glad that the press are keeping the digging, though. I only hate seeing it being mobilized to one side. ( Mind you, I am not voting for him in the upcoming elections. )

The warcrimes tribunal argument is rather weird. If Sharon is a war criminal, shouldn't we lock up most of the Lebanese, and the Syrian government as well? They are under direct responsibility for the Sabra and Shatila massacre, or have been responisble in instigating the civil war in lebanon in the first place.

(btw, when I've said 17th or 19th, I meant that in a list ranging from the least to the most )

[Berzerker]

better question: What type of state would want Speer?

Lol.

[Tripledoc]

To Azazel

Re. The war crimes tribunal. I don't know if a government can be put on trial. The former Syrian president (forget his name, Hasad or something) is dead. I don't know about Lebanon. The Sabra and Shatila massacre, was that not where Christian falangists murdered a lot of Palestinian women or children. I was under the impression that Sharon, acting as minister of defense, let these fascists into the camps knowing full and well their intent? Am I misinformed.
Anyway politics is the art of the possible. For instance the court can hardly bring the sadists in the Russian army to trial for their massacres in Chechnya.
If Srebrenica was bad, Chechnya is the ninth circle of hell.
The American governement was able to put pressure on Yuguslavia to hand over Milosovic and that was good. Although don't make the mistake the Yuguslavians made that deciscion under moral duress, rather confronting the US makes it a bit difficult to get IMF loans. Logically the same method could be used get Sharon, however, this is of course totally unthinkable considering the present political climate in Washington. It is pandoras box. Cheny and Rumsfeld would have to be questioned on their possible coverup in the 70s when CIA 'bumped off' a physician who saw to much in at NATO 'defriefing' centres for captured Russian agents, and threatened to blow a whistle.
The criminal record of governments is a long, long list.

Re: Sharon and corruption
Maybe it's a left wing newspaper, but you would hardly expect a right wing newspaper to publish such reports. Also Benjamin Netanyahu, various other Likud menbers and even Sharons two sons have also neen put under suspicion. Is also not true that Likud often pays contractors to get votes?

[Az]

There are 3 major newspapers in Israel: Ha'aretz, Yediot(the most popular), and Ma'ariv. yediot is the most left-leaning. It also shows the highest class of editing ( though not of journalism IMO). I don't think that the editors wanted to bring the government down. I do suspect the reporter himself.

About Lebanon:.

I was under the impression that Sharon, acting as minister of defense, let these fascists into the camps knowing full and well their intent? Am I misinformed.

What is the goal that it would achieve? Sharon is a pragmatist. He is a Bulldozer, but that's only because he tries to reach his targets. He took the settlements in the Sinai apart when he felt that's the right way for the country. Besides, I don't think that as a minister of defence, he would even know of a tactical developement of that kind. "some tens of christian gunmen moved towards a palestinian refugee camp". That's a force barely the size of a company. Israel had perhaps two army corps there, and Navy and Airforce operations going on.

I am not suggesting to put a government on trial, but there are plenty of official figures from that time, Lebanese, and Syrian. Why not put the damn Commander of the phalangists on trial? Noone suggested that. Now he's dead btw, warlord clashes inside Lebanon, but he was a member of the Lebanese government. It's clear that this is just a pretence to throw mud on the Israeli government.

I would like to point out that IMO, Sharon should have been punished more severely. But his crime was the continuation of the war deep inside Lebanon, and his lies to the Prime minister on that account, not the Sabra and Shatilla massacres. Arafat is responsible for the deaths of thousands, well before Israel went into the picture.

To punish Sharon, and portray him as a vicious murderer, esp. by the brits that "harbor" people like Margaret Thatcher, etc, is Hipocricy of the first degree.

Chechniya: the Russians can hardly be considered the bad guys in Chechniya. Did you get some of the footage that the chechens have taped themselves? the dismembering of POWs, alive, the suicide, and "regular" bombings.

. Is also not true that Likud often pays contractors to get votes?

erm, no. the primary elections in the Likud, is where the corruption takes place, as presented by the last primaries. Some candidate MPs paid to get in, and gave jobs to people in the party center. a contractor can't bribe a nation, and otherwise, all bribes would be too insignificant to try to buy.

The criminal record of governments is a long, long list.

Realpolitik is Immoral. But the UN laws are irrelevant. where are the human rights in Syria, which are part of the founding charter? where is the education for all in African dictatorships? The un doesn't send forces after all the world, right? It is impossible.

[Tripledoc]

Re:Chechniya.
Yes the Chechnian terrorists are cruel, but Chechniya is not exactly Russian is it. The Chechnians have been pushed around since czarist and stalinist times. They have been fighting for independence since I dont know.
I have been to Moscow. What disturbed me most was that in the subways and on the Red Square you would see 18-20 year old soldiers with both legs, or an arm and a leg, or both arms and any other combination begging for money. Why would the Russian state not care for their veterans? I've read an article that the russian officers uses conscripts as living minesweepers
That disturbed me, because while a crazy person can make the case that the Russian army is allowed to torture and handgrenade chechnian prisoners, not even the most ardent Russian nationalist can make the case that consripts should be used as minesweepers and then left to die in the streets after amputation. It's sick.

re: Margaret Thatcher. Do you mean the War for the Maldivas in '82. If not, please elaborate.

re: Arafat. I haven't heard he is responsible for thousands, hundreds maybe. But who do you think should represent the Palestinians?

re: assasinated phalangist leader. I remember that he was supposed to go to Europe and witness in a Belgian court action against Sharon. Then he is blown away. A bit suspicious I would say.

[Az]

re: assasinated phalangist leader. I remember that he was supposed to go to Europe and witness in a Belgian court action against Sharon. Then he is blown away. A bit suspicious I would say.

I don't think it's the case. IF IT IS THE CASE, the europeans are terrible hypocrites and are targeting Ariel Sharon for their own reasons, having the actual commander of the massacres serve as a witness against Ariel Sharon.

The Russian Soldiers: The russian commanders have known to be cruel at times. Hazing is a worrying and a very dangerous crime. But these veterans could be from the Afghan war as well ( which I also support. The country would be much better off being controlled by the soviets, than by primitive barbarian warlords. Women would have their freedom, etc. )

The fact that chechens want independence is irrelevant. When they did have independence, they instituted Sharia law in their country, and trafficed slaves and drugs, kidnapped people for ransom, and tortured them. An israeli teenager was used as a slave for 3 years, before the Russian liberated him. I heard the entire story on TV, I remember. They also oppened an assault on a neighbouring republic, which started the Russian offensive.