Mac VS PC

[tinyp3nis]

Let's see... All of my friends have a computer. All of the computers are PC's. In fact, I have never even seen a Mac. If Mac's are so great, it's a crying shame more people don't know about it.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000


Alright, as someone else inthis thread said (can't be bothered to remember names) we have to give credit where credit is due. The XP User interface is too COMPLICATED?! There wasn't a thing I couldn't do (barring the entire system crashing. Then I couldnt do much)

It's just a bad interface. If you bother to read about UI design you will discover why. Simple operations that require one click on the Mac OS often take 2 or more using a variety of Windows. I don't know about you but efficiency matters to me.

I'm sure your new MAC OS has "wizards" or something to help the new user.

It has a small Help library and tooltips, but you don't really need it. On the old imac there was a problem for complete computing idiots which showed you how to use the mouse by making you drop groceries in a shopping bag.

No, it only means you need wizards.

Strangely, no. On Mac OS X it is as simple as dragging anything you frequently use to the Dock and clicking on Dock icons. Using a digital camera means that you have to plug it in to the USB port - it's called plug and play and yes it can and does work.

No. I have 98.

Any good crashes lately. That must be the worst OS ever sold.

Thanks for the Ad Hominem.

Oh dear...

If you bothered to read my last comment you would realise how foolish it is to bandy Latin phrases around those who read Ancient Languages. FYI "Ad Hominem" means "against the person" - i.e. "you're wrong because you're a *********".

As far as I know Windows XP (Home and Professional editions) are not persons so your phrasing is wildly inappropriate here.

I find Windows garish and ugly - it is also a matter of court record that it is a copy of the Mac OS.

Actually, I've found that Quicktime is much more unstable than WMP.....

I can't see how - the picture quality is much better and it supports MPEG 4.

Oh, and another Ad Hominem.

Nooo.. Dopey, it isn't... Duh.....

No offense, but I would take "monopolyware" than an Apple anyd day.

So what, some people prefer Britney Spears to Beethoven. Says more about you than about Apple....

Considering the alternatives, this monopoly is serving us pretty well.

Really, I'll remember that when Palladium comes out. Meanwhile enjoy your blue screen of death.

Better graphics......?

The font antialiasing on OS X is a lot better than what I've seen of XP. It actually makes it worth reading online documents instead of printing them out.

[Switch]

Dollar for dollar macs aren't really better than PCs. The thought that macs are more powerful is merely a myth. I would back this up, but it is merely heresay and I'm too lazy to back it up

Also, MAC support for mainstream products is about 6 months to a year behind PC, it doesn't allow for hardware upgrades, and most importantly FruityLoops isn't compatible with Mac. With music, the only way to get a decent soundcard is to use usb or some sort of cable connection.

And as to that 1:1 ratio, actually both PCs and Macs have it wrong.....the best ratio is phi:1, something around 1:1.56, or rounded 5:6 I think. It's also known as the golden ratio, and it is considered the most asthetic shape known in nature, along with the golden spiral (which is a derivitive or the golden ratio).

[Agathon]

Spare me the diatribe. If you want to whine then start using Linux and post over with the zealots at Slashdot.

Spare YOU the diatribe? Who made you lord of this world? Don't read it if you don't like it. This is supposed to be a MAC/PC thread - surely you read that before you read the posts on it. What makes you think that I or anyone else is morally obliged to care about YOUR delicate sensibilities?

You can't use Red Hat though because Red Hat sold out by actually being successful. Microsoft has plenty of competitors. People don't use Macs because they prefer PC's. Plain and simple.

MAC is ALSO monopoly. Why can't I buy commodity parts for a Mac? For a PC you can even buy an entire system now for only $200! But with a Mac you are forced to use all their damn proprietary hardware. Lack of hardware competition keeps Macs price artificially inflated.

OK so it is completely irrelevant that it is a matter of court record that Microsoft engaged in anti competitive practices. I have no problem with people wanting to use PC's - nor do I think everyone should use a Mac - I do have a problem with Microsoft's business practices. I think they have profited to the detriment of the computing public. So should anyone who consumes computer products - after all: competition tends to promote quality - lack of competition tends to stifle it. Do you wish to dispute this claim? - If you do then ante up.

And....

The reason that Microsoft effectively controls the OS market is the same reason we use QWERTY keyboards. It isn't because it produces the best or most efficient product (after all everyone knows that the QWERTY keyboard is far from the optimal arrangement) it is because it became a default standard for other reasons. There is no merit at all involved in Microsoft's current market share and to be fair a significant amount of questionable dealings. It's just too bad the DOJ couldn't be bothered to protect consumers against them.

If Apple is a monopoly then by the same rationale so is Coca Cola and many other companies (think about it... if you want to buy real Coke you have to buy it from them). So your statement here is simply absurd. The relevant point is that Apple does not have an effective monopoly over Desktop OSes nor does it seek one. Apple is committed to embracing some open standards and being involved in a competitve market. Microsoft wants to eliminate competition (witness their recent actions regarding MPEG 4).


A $200 dollar system.... give me a break. Are you including the $2 for the duct tape???

nuff said.

[Urban Ranger]

Provost,

" 1 and a bit years and not a single system lockup. In my experience, that seems to be 'stable'. Now I am not going to do an Asher, but credit where credit is due. I certainly never had this from any Macs I have previously used."

I'll grant you that XP is more stable than the W9x line of Windows. I could get an NT system do the same, and they all need periodic rebooting anyway, so that's no difference there. Except that XP requires a lot more hardware to run than NT/2K.


Tassadar,

"The XP User interface is too COMPLICATED?! There wasn't a thing I couldn't do (barring the entire system crashing. Then I couldnt do much)"

How many clicks does it take to change the letter on a drive? The thing is Windows hide all the details under wraps, so it looks easy until you need to do something real, then it gets in the way. It is really not easier to use than *nix etc. - all demand a fair bit of knowledge on the user's part.


Ted Striker,

"Tell me what exactly is "too hard" about pointing and clicking?"

Not necessarily too hard, but you gotta remember where to find things and what to do. Not easier than *nix and NetWare IMO.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Agathon

Who made you lord of this world?

I am King Striker Lord of all. BOW DOWN TO THE MONSTERS OF ROCK!!!!

after all: competition tends to promote quality - lack of competition tends to stifle it. Do you wish to dispute this claim? - If you do then ante up.

So then tell me again why Macs don't let anyone else make hardware? Doesn't that lack of competition stifle quality?

The reason that Microsoft effectively controls the OS market is the same reason we use QWERTY keyboards. It isn't because it produces the best or most efficient product

On the desktop, there is no better system. By your own analogy, I can still choose an Apple desktop, or a Linux desktop, or a BSD desktop, yet me and millions of consumers worldwide still choose Windows? Because we are forced to?

Apple is committed to embracing some open standards

Like what? TCP/IP? Apple is just as guilty as Microsoft, probably more guilty, of developing closed systems.

A $200 dollar system.... give me a break. Are you including the $2 for the duct tape???

Yup, Wal-Mart now has $200 for a pc that will do everything an average user needs. It comes with Linux though. So that's when it's time to break out fdisk and reload it with Windows for desktop or BSD for server.

I've heard rumors though of Mac going off its proprietary hardware and defecting over to Intel.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Ted Striker,

Not necessarily too hard, but you gotta remember where to find things and what to do. Not easier than *nix and NetWare IMO.

Well, I haven't tried Red Hat's new install, which is supposedly geared towards the desktop, but any default installation of KDE or Gnome is outright horrid.

There are some good X Windows managers like Blackbox that are far superior than anything out there, but those take way too much setup and customization. The Linux desktops are still a disaster. They have made some improvements, but the ones that claim usability are the Windows clones.

XP is still miles ahead, and the next release coming down the pipeline is even better.

[Asher]

Surely you jest.....

In XP the UI is far too complicated and inconsistent. Some people remarked that they don't like Apple's one button mouse - that's fine, a two button mouse with scroll wheel is supported by Mac OS X - but you don't really need a two button mouse to use the Mac OS if you know what you're doing (but some people prefer them anyway).

XP has "wizards".

XP needs "wizards"

Ripped an mp3 lately?

Ripping music in Windows XP is painless, although WMP doesn't rip to MP3, but to the (superior) WMA format. Here's the difficult procedure for ripping it, let's see if you can keep up, da?

Step 1: Insert audio CD into computer
Step 2: Open Windows Media Player (or when it asks you the first time you insert an audio CD, tell it to always open WMP when an audio CD is inserted via the prompt)
Step 3: Click "Copy From CD" on the lefthand side.
Step 4: Hit the "Copy" button, making sure all the tracks you want to copy are selected (notes it automatically fills in all data like Track names/album names when you view it)

Windows is an ugly and inferior copy of the Mac OS.

Windows Media Player is an ugly and inferior copy of Quicktime.

XP is monopolyware - every person who uses Windows contributes to Gates' virtual monopoly on computing and you don't have to be an economist to know that monopolies are, in general, very bad for the consumer (I often wonder where computers would be if the Microsoft monopoly had been broken in the mid nineties).

Windows will soon be rentware.

XP is not UNIX - nuff said.

and

OS X has much better graphics. If you've ever tried to read classical greek on windows you will know what I mean.

May I just say that I appreciate the new breed of Apple zealots. Not only have you improved in your deceptive skills, but it's actually much more amusing for me to read. Before I found them just pathetic and let bygones be bygones, but now it's just damn funny.

You don't know what you're talking about. There's really nothing else to it.

But let's continue just for the hell of it!

It's just a bad interface. If you bother to read about UI design you will discover why.

That's odd -- I've done quite a lot of reading on it myself and, actually, Windows' UI is largely a benchmark for other people to catch up with. I'm fascinated, though, which textbooks have you read regards to UI design? I'm just wondering if they're the same ones I've read or if you're on some other planet.

Simple operations that require one click on the Mac OS often take 2 or more using a variety of Windows. I don't know about you but efficiency matters to me.

Give me a couple of examples, otherwise ditch this pointless effort to make a point because I'm not biting...

Strangely, no. On Mac OS X it is as simple as dragging anything you frequently use to the Dock and clicking on Dock icons.

Wow! This sounds familiar! Wait, I know why -- Windows XP can do that too.
Do you know what the QuickLaunch toolbar does on the start menu? Drag n' drop any program you want onto it. Any time you click that icon, the program opens. If you want to open, say, an MP3 file, drag and drop that MP3 file onto the program's icon you want to open it with. Tada!

Using a digital camera means that you have to plug it in to the USB port - it's called plug and play and yes it can and does work.

Again! Deja Vu! And yes, once again, this is how it works in Windows XP too!
I plug in my Canon Digital Camera to the USB cable, the Canon ZoomBrowser software automatically opens up and begins batch-downloading all images to a time-and-date-stamped directory in my "My Pictures" folder.

I find Windows garish and ugly - it is also a matter of court record that it is a copy of the Mac OS.

You seem to be confused. Totally confused. The court ruled that Windows used a graphical interface after Apple did, when Apple sued MS for "copying" their interface. Nothing actually really came from it, it's a mere formality. It's actually quite a farce when you consider Xerox PARC developed the first GUIs, Apple then copied Xerox, then MS came along and did it and Apple sued MS.

This is in no, way, shape, or form saying that Windows is a copy of the Mac OS. In fact, MS would have literally dozens of lawsuits against Apple if they didn't fear the DoJ coming after them with antitrust crap. Take a look around at http://research.microsoft.com, go do some research into MS' patent portfolio. MS could legally kill fundamental components of things like OpenGL and lots of aspects of the new Mac OS if they felt the urge to charge licenses for all of the patents it has.

I can't see how - the picture quality is much better and it supports MPEG 4.

"The picture quality is much better"?
MPEG4 is a great standard. It's such a shame, though, that it's only a jumping off point. WMV9 is a much improved version of MPEG4, as is DivX. For the record, you can play MPEG4 videos in WMP too...

Really, I'll remember that when Palladium comes out. Meanwhile enjoy your blue screen of death.

1. Palladium ships disabled by default and the user chooses what it can do. The fearmongering by Apple and Linux zealots are based out of either ignorance or out of pure intent to spread misinformation.
2. I haven't seen a BSOD in years. But, please, I really do appreciate your trite, childish comments about the OS that don't argue a point but rather serve as an insult.

The font antialiasing on OS X is a lot better than what I've seen of XP. It actually makes it worth reading online documents instead of printing them out.

The font antialiasing in OS X is licensed from MS (ClearType variation). Perhaps you should look into this stuff more before you build it into your case, you might find it to be more helpful...

And you really can't do any better than sub-pixel antialiasing (ClearType), there is no known way to do it better. Apple uses it and MS uses it. MS owns the patent on it, since MS Research invented it in the mid-90s and implemented it in Windows XP.

OK so it is completely irrelevant that it is a matter of court record that Microsoft engaged in anti competitive practices. I have no problem with people wanting to use PC's - nor do I think everyone should use a Mac - I do have a problem with Microsoft's business practices. I

Spare us all with your garbage. Apple is Microsoft on steroids with regards to "evil" business practices, it just so happens that Steve Jobs isn't half the businessman as Bill Gates is so the company is pathetically stuck in low single-digit marketshare percentages for the rest of its life.

Go ahead, tell everyone about how Apple drove all of the "Apple clone" computer businesses out of business when Jobs took the helm again. Tell everyone about how Apple SUES regular people with websites on a regular basis for posting information on the next-gen iMac before it's out.

Apple is far more monopolistic and "evil" in a business sense than MS, it just so happens that they don't have the brains to get the marketshare that Microsoft has obtained. C'est la vie!

NOTE: I'm in BC right now on a public access computer. I would love to debate more posts in here but time is short and I'm being summoned away. I'll be back friday night for sure.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
So then tell me again why Macs don't let anyone else make hardware? Doesn't that lack of competition stifle quality?

That's what so strange about the Wintel market. The hardware is excellent while Windows is such a bloated piece of crap.

Originally posted by Ted Striker
On the desktop, there is no better system. By your own analogy, I can still choose an Apple desktop, or a Linux desktop, or a BSD desktop, yet me and millions of consumers worldwide still choose Windows? Because we are forced to?

Actually yes. I am not sure if you need to pay the MS tax anymore, but you used to when you buy from an OEM,. With all those systems came pre-installed with Windows and users paying for it (most of them don't know better), it is hardly surprising that Windows dominates the PC desktop.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Well, I haven't tried Red Hat's new install, which is supposedly geared towards the desktop, but any default installation of KDE or Gnome is outright horrid.

I suppose it all depends on personal preferences. I found XP's desktop overly embellished myself.

Originally posted by Ted Striker
XP is still miles ahead, and the next release coming down the pipeline is even better.

Miles ahead in what? Removing the subjective elements from usability, the only measurement you really have is how fast a user can do things. My personal experience with XP is that it is no more usable than other GUI because of the sheer number of mouse clicks you need to perform tasks.

[monolith94]

I've found that quicktime works better on macs, and windows media player works better on pcs... FUNNY how that works! Spare me that debate please!

[Ted Striker]

Well, there is a reason we refer to 386 based hardware as "Wintel," hardware. The reason is that Microsoft CREATED that market.

Back in the day (the 80s) you either bought a Mac or a PC. If you bought a PC, you were limited to Microsoft DOS, IBM DOS, 4 DOS, or a bunch of other DOS clones. When Microsoft released 3.11 and 95, those DOS OSes became irrelevent. There wasn't any choice not because Microsoft squelched competition, it was because there just wasn't any competition around!

If you wanted a Mac, then you bought a Mac and with it Mac hardware.

Now, most of those OEM agreements took place in the mid 90s, years after Microsoft gained dominance on the desktop. (You could still buy a Mac during this whole time, by the way).

This idea of having some other OS to install besides Windows is relatively new, and didn't happen until the late 90s, when the Linux geeks arrived on the scene and started crying. The idea of installing another kind of hardware on a 386 system all along was as foreign as installing another kind of OS on a Mac hardware system. It just didn't happen.

(However BSD was released before Linux, and you could always get things like SCO UNIX or QNX for installation on a 386 system, though none of these had any sort of value to the consumer).

[Ted Striker]

Miles ahead in what? Removing the subjective elements from usability, the only measurement you really have is how fast a user can do things. My personal experience with XP is that it is no more usable than other GUI because of the sheer number of mouse clicks you need to perform tasks.

-With one click a user can open up Word and start typing their document
-With one click a user can open up IE and go to their websites

How hard is it?

The ultimate solution is a Blackbox type system where you right click and you have your apps all right there. No other clutter is around.

[Ted Striker]

PS

Is it a coincidence that the rise of the Internet somehow coincided shortly after the release of Windows 95?

Hmmmm....

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

Ripping music in Windows XP is painless, although WMP doesn't rip to MP3, but to the (superior) WMA format. Here's the difficult procedure for ripping it, let's see if you can keep up, da?

Well well the question I asked was "Ripped an MP3 lately?" You know MP3, the open standard for sharing music on the internet, don't you?

Don't you mean the "proprietary" WMA format. Are you employed by MS or something, it certainly sounds like it.

May I just say that I appreciate the new breed of Apple zealots. Not only have you improved in your deceptive skills, but it's actually much more amusing for me to read. Before I found them just pathetic and let bygones be bygones, but now it's just damn funny.

You don't know what you're talking about. There's really nothing else to it.

Oh really, so I should just take your word for it. Sticks and stones, little boy. BTW I am not an Apple zealot - I just don't much care for Windows - a judgement I came to from using it.

Do you know what the QuickLaunch toolbar does on the start menu? Drag n' drop any program you want onto it. Any time you click that icon, the program opens. If you want to open, say, an MP3 file, drag and drop that MP3 file onto the program's icon you want to open it with. Tada!

Tried controlling the app from the QL toolbar? Tried looking at the hideous thing?

Again! Deja Vu! And yes, once again, this is how it works in Windows XP too!
I plug in my Canon Digital Camera to the USB cable, the Canon ZoomBrowser software automatically opens up and begins batch-downloading all images to a time-and-date-stamped directory in my "My Pictures" folder.

If only this was true -

As for the "copying" - as I understand it the court agreed that Microsoft had copied many UI elements from the Mac OS but declined to grant Apple patents for these elements. I'm not going to back down and say that I find Windows easier to use because I just don't and I can't believe I endured the frustration of using it from 3.1 to 98.

MPEG4 is a great standard.

more to the point MPEG4 is an open standard.

1. Palladium ships disabled by default and the user chooses what it can do. The fearmongering by Apple and Linux zealots are based out of either ignorance or out of pure intent to spread misinformation.
2. I haven't seen a BSOD in years. But, please, I really do appreciate your trite, childish comments about the OS that don't argue a point but rather serve as an insult.

I didn't know Palladium was already out. It isn't yet, is it?

The font antialiasing in OS X is licensed from MS (ClearType variation). Perhaps you should look into this stuff more before you build it into your case, you might find it to be more helpful...

So why do my Greek fonts look a lot better in Text Edit for OS X than they do in Word XP? That's my test benchmark - looking. What is different in Word XP that makes it worse? I don't know - but as an end user I don't care.

Spare us all with your garbage. Apple is Microsoft on steroids with regards to "evil" business practices, it just so happens that Steve Jobs isn't half the businessman as Bill Gates is so the company is pathetically stuck in low single-digit marketshare percentages for the rest of its life.

Gates got lucky with DOS - IBM got real unlucky. The rest has largely been MS using its market share as leverage to force out competitors (hoorary for IE). Would you care to argue that monopolies are generally a good thing or would you care to shut up? Would you care to argue that Microsoft did not engage in anti competitive practices by bundling IE?

Do that and you will perhaps say something worthwhile.

Go ahead, tell everyone about how Apple drove all of the "Apple clone" computer businesses out of business when Jobs took the helm again.

OK fine - it was killing the company. In any case I don't see how this is relevant since Apple has never had a virtual monopoly on computer OSes. Apple's misdeeds don't affect the computer user at large in the way MS's do. I thought that would be obvious to anyone. The only way that Apple would have affected its consumers by allowing cloning to continue would have been to go out of business itself. Where would the cloners have been then??

Apple is far more monopolistic and "evil" in a business sense than MS, it just so happens that they don't have the brains to get the marketshare that Microsoft has obtained. C'est la vie!

I can't believe that people are so absolutely thick to believe that MS got where it is through fair competition rather than the leveraging of its virtual monopoly. You'd have to be some brain dead libertarian to believe that - but then again these days so many are....