Economist tallies swelling cost of Israel to US

[Gatekeeper]

Interesting stuff.

The "buy Israel" bit is surprising. I'm sorry, but I'd rather have our military stuff be of American manufacture as much as possible, unless circumstances dictate otherwise. And since our industrial, technical and know-how capacity are far from diminished, such circumstances do not exist.

The part where Israel uses U.S. funds to buy military equipment from its own industries is a slap of sorts. I have no problem with them buying their own military stuff from domestic sources, but they should do so with their own money, not our aid. I'd rather use that 40 percent of the $1.8 billion or so for domestic purposes in the United States.

Why would we help Israel develop its own jet fighters (Lavi) and missiles (Arrow)? Do we expect to gain something from this $2.5 billion subsidy? If so, it'd better be something along the lines of a next-generation benefit made available *now,* IMHO.

One final question: Is this how we do business with other nations? Do all nations do business this way? Just asking so we don't necessarily demonize Israel for doing something that might be quite commonplace among the nations of the world.

Gatekeeper

[GePap]

Back around 1999-2000, the Barak government was thinking that as part of a final settlement, the US would give Israel 12 to 15 billion dollars to help pay for the costs of implementation: I don't think the Israeli government could really ask for more annually, but certainly some nice and fat 'loans' every few years.

And Israel still has tax rates above 40% to meet all its costs. Without direct aid (which, given 6 million inhabittants, comes out to about 500 dollars a person annually) the tax burden would really be murder in Israel.

[Eli]

You dont want to waste money of Israeli missile defense systems? Fine, but remember that when there is no good defense pre-emptive attack is the only option.

You dont want to spend money to help us deal with suicide bombings? Ok, but dont whine when because of lack of troops tens of Palestinians will start dying every day.

You want us to be the only country who always supported you no matter what?

You want to benefit from all the Israeli technologies that are getting installed in pretty much every piece of military equipment you build?

You want to attack Iraq? You want us to stay quiet?

Pay.

[DanS]

"I don't think the Israeli government could really ask for more annually"

You might be surprised what everybody will ask for.

[GePap]

As the article stataes, the US and probably most states) give aid money and then expect that aid money to be used to buy its own products: which is one of the ways that governments sell the notion of aid money: it all eventually returns as sales for local industries. Israel's position is singular (Egypt get lots of cash, but not all the subsidies, and it buys American with our money, specially since it does not have much of a local arms industry).

The point is not to 'demonize Israel', after all, it is internal US politics that lead to all this money been given, not Israeli pressure on the US.

[Edan]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Try just about every newspaper from 1990, when the US forgive all of Israel's loans when they did the same for Egypt.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that. I'm fairly sure that Egypt got it's loans forgiven, and Israel didn't (as it didn't want its credit rating messed up). OTOH, Israel probably got a grant to cover the billions of damage + cost from the Gulf War.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Eli
You dont want to waste money of Israeli missile defense systems? Fine, but remember that when there is no good defense pre-emptive attack is the only option.

You dont want to spend money to help us deal with suicide bombings? Ok, but dont whine when because of lack of troops tens of Palestinians will start dying every day.

You want us to be the only country who always supported you no matter what?

You want to benefit from all the Israeli technologies that are getting installed in pretty much every piece of military equipment you build?

You want to attack Iraq? You want us to stay quiet?

Pay.

Eli: maybe the Syrians won't be so 'demanding'; should the US consider a brand switch? Far cheaper in the war on terror, no?

[GePap]

Also ELi; Israel does not support the US, no matter what, specially in relation to: drug policy, the issue of human trafficking, the international arms market (selling stuff to China), opposing US military grants to Arab states, so forth and so on. All in all, Israel is a very uppitty lackey, but US frgiveness in this area s boundless (for now)

[Edan]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Interesting stuff.

The "buy Israel" bit is surprising. I'm sorry, but I'd rather have our military stuff be of American manufacture as much as possible, unless circumstances dictate otherwise. And since our industrial, technical and know-how capacity are far from diminished, such circumstances do not exist.

The part where Israel uses U.S. funds to buy military equipment from its own industries is a slap of sorts. I have no problem with them buying their own military stuff from domestic sources, but they should do so with their own money, not our aid. I'd rather use that 40 percent of the $1.8 billion or so for domestic purposes in the United States.

You misunderstand, I think. Part of the aid package states that the aid has to be used on US manufactrors, IIRC, so Israel does spend a lot on American products.

Why would we help Israel develop its own jet fighters (Lavi) and missiles (Arrow)?

Umm, much of those developments are developed jointly, like the Arrow system (as well as that neat-o laser beam thingy that was made recently)

Do we expect to gain something from this $2.5 billion subsidy? If so, it'd better be something along the lines of a next-generation benefit made available *now,* IMHO.

We've already benefited greatly from Israel - Israel provided the west with it's first captured working Mig. Israel helped avert a war between Syria and Jordan in 1970. Israel set back Iraq's nuclear program 10 years, so that when Saddam attacked Kuwait, Iraq didn't have nuclear weapons. And Israeli intelligence has proved to be invaluable.

One final question: Is this how we do business with other nations? Do all nations do business this way? Just asking so we don't necessarily demonize Israel for doing something that might be quite commonplace among the nations of the world.

Well, a good comparison would be how much the US spends militarily on Europe, Japan and South Korea (as well as actually having our troops there)

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Edan


I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that. I'm fairly sure that Egypt got it's loans forgiven, and Israel didn't (as it didn't want its credit rating messed up). OTOH, Israel probably got a grant to cover the billions of damage + cost from the Gulf War.

Given that credit ratings directly correlate with how much debt you have outstanding and your ability to pay said debt, I should think that having your loans forgiven would be beneficial to Israel's credit rating.

[Edan]

Without direct aid (which, given 6 million inhabittants, comes out to about 500 dollars a person annually) the tax burden would really be murder in Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2564981.stm

I've seen a report by cnn that stated that if Israel recieved no aid, it would still survive (albeit, with a lower standard of living).

[GePap]

Originally posted by Edan


You misunderstand, I think. Part of the aid package states that the aid has to be used on US manufactrors, IIRC, so Israel does spend a lot on American products.

The original article makes it clear that Israel does not have to spend 100% of US aid money in the US, which is the standard clause

Umm, much of those developments are developed jointly, like the Arrow system (as well as that neat-o laser beam thingy that was made recently)

THe US military does not expect to jointly produce the arrow system. Basically, the US is giving aid to Israeli companies to porduce this weapon. If the US wanted to get soem, it would have to buy them form the Israeli company.

We've already benefited greatly from Israel - Israel provided the west with it's first captured working Mig. Israel helped avert a war between Syria and Jordan in 1970. Israel set back Iraq's nuclear program 10 years, so that when Saddam attacked Kuwait, Iraq didn't have nuclear weapons. And Israeli intelligence has proved to be invaluable.

Sadly, you can't prove that had the US spent its money otherwise results would have been worst, if not possibly better.

Well, a good comparison would be how much the US spends militarily on Europe, Japan and South Korea (as well as actually having our troops there)

The US does not give aid, or loans to any of those states, those states pay for their own weapons, or buy directly from the US and US weapons manufacturers. The cost of US troops is divided in various ways. No other state has the sort of relationship with the US (economic) that Israel has. It is a singular relation.

[Edan]

Re: Economist tallies swelling cost of Israel to US

Israel has blocked some major US arms sales, such as F-15 fighter aircraft to Saudi Arabia in the mid-1980s. That cost $40 billion over 10 years, says Stauffer.

How many transactions by Israel has the US blocked?

BTW, IIRC, aid to Israel will be dropping slowly from 3 billion to about 2.5 billion(?) in the near future, at Israel's request, IIRC.

[Edan]

The US does not give aid, or loans to any of those states, those states pay for their own weapons, or buy directly from the US and US weapons manufacturers. The cost of US troops is divided in various ways. No other state has the sort of relationship with the US (economic) that Israel has. It is a singular relation.

Again, you miss my point. Economic help, be it through foreign aid or through military aid is still economic aid. How much money do those countries save by not having to maintain large armies in order to guarantee security.

Would you rather have American troops in Israel and no aid, even if it would cost more?

[Edan]

THe US military does not expect to jointly produce the arrow system. Basically, the US is giving aid to Israeli companies to porduce this weapon. If the US wanted to get soem, it would have to buy them form the Israeli company.

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/03/14/israel.missile/index.html

"The Arrow missile -- a joint project with the United States -- is meant to intercept missiles at high altitudes and far away from their targets."