Drug War Disaster

[Graag]

The biochemistry of Ketamine and PCP are virtually identical. Ketamine was designed as a replacement for PCP that did not depress respiratory drive.

Fair enough. I know little about chemisty so I bow to your greater knowledge.

Studies have shown about 35% of PCP users become violent.

I would be very interested to read these studies.

[You "think maybe"? I'll go you one better. I know from experience that additional nursing support is needed to deal with agitated post-op patients when Ketamine is used. At the hosp[ital where I worked they said that in their experience about 25% required restraint in post-op]

I cannot argue with your experience, which is vastly greater than mine, other than to say in my experience 0% of Ket users were in any way violent when awakening.

This raises an interesting point about doseage. I cannot tell you (or even guess) how much Ket I used in order to become unconcious, but perhaps you would have used a much greater dose for aneasthetic purposes, which may have caused the violent reaction you report.
Moreover the majority of people who use Ket use it socially, in small doses, rather than to become unconcious. Are your experiances with Ket valid in this context? And I repeat, I would be very interested to see any study which proved Ket or PCP produces a violent reaction in such a huge percentage of users.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Graag


This raises an interesting point about doseage. I cannot tell you (or even guess) how much Ket I used in order to become unconcious, but perhaps you would have used a much greater dose for aneasthetic purposes, which may have caused the violent reaction you report.
Moreover the majority of people who use Ket use it socially, in small doses, rather than to become unconcious. Are your experiances with Ket valid in this context? And I repeat, I would be very interested to see any study which proved Ket or PCP produces a violent reaction in such a huge percentage of users.

I don't know the doseages used, I'm an internest, not a surgeon. I simply looked after the patients in post-op. I'm sure that the hospital was using medicinal grade stuff, so the purity would be standardized. If you were using street stuff then the purity would vary from batch to batch, and you would risk occasionally getting more than you bargained for. Unless of course you're using medical or veternary Ketamine which means that someone stold it. Shame.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Ah when on drugs... an interesting article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0,2763,871188,00.html

by Mo Mowlam former UK minister and she was responsible for UK drugs policy until 2001.

It is about drugs and related gun crime.

A series of gun-related crimes is reported in the press over the last week and, as sure as night follows day, we have an immediate response from the government that it is going to bring forward legislation to increase the penalty for possessing a gun. At a time when our prisons are straining at the seams we have a headline-grabbing policy which may in the short term look good, and in the medium term will probably be either irrelevant or counter-productive. On top of this it is announced that the prime minister is going to take personal control of a new crusade against guns. Visas will monitor Jamaicans travelling to the UK, and instant deportation will face asylum seekers found in possession of such weapons.
First, let's put this into perspective: a Metropolitan police spokesman has said that gun-related crime only accounts for 0.003% of all crimes they deal with. Yes, it would appear that gun crime is increasing, but from a very small base. It is not a time to panic. Also we should remember that most gun crime relates to the illegal drugs trade, which is mainly controlled by foreign gangs, for whom guns are a regular part of the business. Drug dealers have been shooting each other for some time, without the media and Home Office attention suddenly being lavished upon them.

Admittedly there are changes occurring in the gangs that dominate this market. It would seem that at the moment there are a number of Kosovans moving in on the UK. This, though, probably has far more to do with US and UK military action in Kosovo (where defeat of the Serbs has facilitated drug running through the Balkans) and Afghanistan (where defeat of the Taliban has led to the extensive production of heroin again) than with the UK's sentencing laws for gun possession.
The increase in gun crime is a byproduct of the level of organised crime that we are allowing to fester within our society - an organised crime business that is being fuelled by our wrongheaded laws relating to drugs.

The film Some Like It Hot has a scene when one Chicago gang is gunned down by another. The film is a comedy, drawing humour from the absurdity of the years of prohibition in the US, when alcohol was made illegal. Of course this did not stop drinking, it merely pushed it underground. The bar was replaced with the speakeasy. The legitimate supplier of booze was replaced by the gangster. A whole new criminal element was added to society that not only corroded the drink business, but also brought intimidation, violence and corruption into previously clean activities, for example in the rise of protection rackets. Today we laugh at films that portray that era, while ignoring the reality of such a situation existing and growing within our own society.

Drugs in this country are almost more freely available than alcohol: their supply is not constrained by licensing laws, large numbers of people smoke marijuana, particularly teenagers and young people, and a lot also take ecstasy and cocaine. They are not criminals; they are people you know. They are people who are likely to be sitting next to you at work, or living in your homes. But all these people are being brought into almost daily contact with organised crime. Isn't this a most foolish situation?

Please can we begin to hear some good sense from No 10 and the Home Office, and let's start looking at how drugs can be legalised and our society can be decriminalised. Let's recognise reality and start to reduce the numbers who are cluttering up our prisons. Let's start selling drugs through outlets such as off-licences, where the likelihood of dealing with someone holding a gun is virtually zero, unlike the street traders of today. Let's admit that we are getting it wrong, by allowing our fear and prejudice against certain drugs to drive us to pursue wrongheaded policies which only produce damaging social results.

When I was in government I visited Jamaica to see the harm the cocaine trade is doing to that country. It is a staging post between Colombia, where the cocaine is manufactured, and the UK and US, where it is consumed. Jamaica is a poor country with a fragile economy; its people are easily exploited by the drug barons, who often pay for the services of mules and other smugglers with the drug itself. That further ruins their employees' wretched lives and the society they live in. Jamaica, like many other countries around the world, is a victim of our laws.

The drug business thrives on demand from the developed world, a demand we are not properly controlling through legalisation. That leads to increasing lawlessness and corruption in our own countries, but also harms innocent countries such as Jamaica. That is the outrage that we should be focusing our attention upon.

· Mo Mowlam was in Tony Blair's cabinet from 1997-2001 and was responsible for the government's drugs policy from 1999-2001

now this is the assesment from the someone in the know, but she is not "official" anymore so she can speek freely.

[orange]

for the most part, i agree

[Graag]

Governement minister is sensible statement shocker

Well said Mo! (not that I read all of it)

[gsmoove23]

I don't know about legalizing the harder substances but I have never been able to understand the prohibition of marijuana. There are simply no reasons for it if you have no problem with legalizing cigarrettes or alcohol. It is by no means as addictive as those drugs.

I also don't understand jail time for those who possess drugs and are not sellers. How the **** do you think you are doing anybody a favour by putting an addict in prison where he will undoubtedly be pushed further into criminal behaviour. Treatment programs, anything else is a waste of resources.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
I don't know about legalizing the harder substances but I have never been able to understand the prohibition of marijuana. There are simply no reasons for it if you have no problem with legalizing cigarrettes or alcohol. It is by no means as addictive as those drugs.

I also don't understand jail time for those who possess drugs and are not sellers. How the **** do you think you are doing anybody a favour by putting an addict in prison where he will undoubtedly be pushed further into criminal behaviour. Treatment programs, anything else is a waste of resources.

DO you propose substituting marijuana for alcohol? Do you honestly think that you could do this, considering the enormous numbers of drinkers?

[Graag]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
DO you propose substituting marijuana for alcohol? Do you honestly think that you could do this, considering the enormous numbers of drinkers?

IMHO if pot was legal a huge number of drinkers would convert to pot smoking. I've personally seen a good few heavy drinkers change to pot. Not that I'm saying pot is necessarily better than booze, but it is unquestionably a far less violent drug than alcohol. I have never, never seen a stoned person become violent, and I feel no need to remember the number of times I've seen drunk people become violent and aggresive.