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  • Race and Genetics: New Study

    Because the "Is race biological?" question gets kicked around here so often, I thought people might be interested in this article from yesterday's papers:


    Race Not Reflected in Genes, Study Finds

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The idea of race is not reflected in a person's genes, Brazilian (news - web sites) researchers said on Monday, confirming what scientists have long said -- that race has no meaning genetically.

    The Brazilian researchers looked at one of the most racially mixed populations in the world for their study, which found there is no way to look at someone's genes and determine his or her race. Brazilians include people of European, African and Indian, or Amerindian, descent.

    "There is wide agreement among anthropologists and human geneticists that, from a biological standpoint, human races do not exist," Sergio Pena and colleagues at the Universidade Federal de Minas Gerias in Brazil and the University of Porto in Portugal wrote in their report, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (news - web sites).

    "Yet races do exist as social constructs," they said.

    They found 10 gene variations that could reliably tell apart, genetically, 20 men from northern Portugal and 20 men from Sao Tome island on the west coast of Africa.

    But the genetic differences did not have anything to do with physical characteristics such as skin or hair color, the researchers found.

    They next tested two groups -- 173 Brazilians classified as white, black, or intermediate based on arm skin color, hair color, and nose and lip shape, and 200 men living in major metropolitan areas who classified themselves as white.

    They used the 10 genetic markers that differed between people from Portugal and Africa, but found little difference among anyone in their study.

    To their surprise, they found maternal DNA suggested that even the "white" people had, on average, 33 percent of genes that were of Amerindian ancestry and 28 percent African.

    This suggested European men often fathered children with black and Indian women.

    "It is interesting to note that the group of individuals classified as blacks had a very high proportion of non-African ancestry (48 percent)," they wrote.

    "In essence our data indicate that, in Brazil as a whole, color is a weak predictor of African ancestry," they concluded.

    "Our study makes clear the hazards of equating color or race with geographical ancestry and using interchangeably terms such as white, Caucasian and European on one hand, and black, Negro or African on the other, as is often done in scientific and medical literature."
    The latest news and headlines from Yahoo News. Get breaking news stories and in-depth coverage with videos and photos.


    I really want to see this study duplicated in the US.
    "I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin

  • #2
    I don't think Brazil's a really good place to do a study, honestly. Brazil is a country with a lot of mixed blood, and the Portugese aren't pure Europeans either, having imported Africans en mass to their own country and interbred.

    It doesn't make sense that genetic variations between isloated groups would be reflected. They need to use better groups, such as Icelanders, Jews, Aboriginies, etc.

    So far, however, the only way to determine the "race" of someone scientifically is either by looking at them (which isn't 100% BTW) or by studying their bones post mortum.
    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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    • #3
      What I don't understand is how skin color could be anything other than a genetic trait. It isn't like blacks can make themselves white by drinking milk or something (wouldn't Michael Jackson love that?). It sounds like these scientists couldn't recognize the genes that determine skin color and just assumed that they don't exist.
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      • #4
        1. Race is genetic. Simple genetic tests will show this. (Not DNA. Just observe that black children are born to blacks, etc.)

        2. Mitochondrial DNA supports the argument that the races are different family groups.

        3. This "study" sounds rather imprecise. What was the exact scientific thing they wanted to prove? Was it a tautology? Is their "proof" sufficient?

        4. Rufus, just how good are you at reading a report and examining it if it concerns science? Your post doesn't impress me much. Seems rather simple-minded.

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        • #5
          The genes that determine skin color, however, do not determine race, nor do they even point at race. They merely point at the latitude where their ancestors lived for many thousands of years. Skin color, across the globe (until the modern era) was determined not by race but by proximity to the equator, which is why there are dark skinned Caucasians and light skinned Africans (Bushmen, not Arabs). Furthermore, Caucasians are genetically closer to Africans, with their much darker (on average) skin than were are to Asians, who have very similar skin to us.
          Last edited by chequita guevara; December 18, 2002, 03:09.
          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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          • #6
            GP, race is primarily a social contruct, which tends to follow groups of similar geographical ancestry. Matching groups to races, however, depends on the society, and white and black mean different things in different societies. In the 19th Century, the Chinese immigrants in California were legally Blacks, while Mexicans were legally Indians (which is a little closer to the truth).

            DNA, so far, hasn't been a very good indicator of race, simply because the variations within a race are much wider than variations between races.
            Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by GP
              4. Rufus, just how good are you at reading a report and examining it if it concerns science? Your post doesn't impress me much. Seems rather simple-minded.
              Whoa, valium time for GP. All I did was post a news article dealing with an oft-discussed Apolyton topic. I didn't opine on it except to say that it would be interesting to see the results if the study were duplicated in the US, another racially mixed nation. Forget science reports; how good are you at reading a forum post?
              "I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin

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              • #8
                I think we need a working definition of what the word "race" means.

                When I use the term "race", I'm talking about classifications of humans based on physical characteristics, like skin color. If you use this definition, then race is obviously genetic, as physical characteristics are determined by ones genetic makeup.
                KH FOR OWNER!
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                • #9
                  Rufus, I've read a lot more Poly posts than you have. The comments stand. Learn to look at "science reports" heck any news report more critically. Don't wander thorough life without a critical faculty.

                  Here is a good link on the evloutionary nature of races: http://www.utexas.edu/courses/gene/L39.htm


                  Che, umm...yeah.

                  1. There is much more to races than skin color alone. Facial features, body dimensions, etc. Complete agreement.

                  2. Just because some people called Chinese blacks, does not mean that the classification is purely cultural. We can look at it more scientifically. Do you think that different breeds of dogs are cultural only? That they have no relation to lineages?

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                  • #10
                    Hasn't it also been shown blacks have an extra muscle in their legs? Plus they also tend to have bigger butts.
                    "I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer

                    "I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
                      Hasn't it also been shown blacks have an extra muscle in their legs? Plus they also tend to have bigger butts.
                      Don't know about the first. The second no longer seems to be true. Somehow or another, Generation Y seems to have developed butts. Everything good skips my generation.
                      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                      • #12
                        it seems to me all this study shows is a lot of mixing

                        no suprise there.

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                        • #13
                          I think the point of this is that while, yes, you can tell what skin color a person will have from genetics, it does not make a person genetically similiar in all other respects to others of the same color. Like, if you compared the DNA of two black people and then compared them both to the DNA of a white person, the two blacks would not likely have more genetic similiarities than either of them had with the white person.
                          If playground rules don't apply, this is anarchy! -Kelso

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                          • #14
                            This study does have one redeeming quality. Is that skin color can be decieving when determining race.

                            Maybe armed with this knowledge and the fact I do have Native American heritiage despite me having white skin I can move to California and open my own Indian casino .

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
                              I think we need a working definition of what the word "race" means.

                              When I use the term "race", I'm talking about classifications of humans based on physical characteristics, like skin color. If you use this definition, then race is obviously genetic, as physical characteristics are determined by ones genetic makeup.
                              Are people shorter than 6ft, with blonde hair and green eyes a different race to all those people who are taller than 6ft, with brown hair and blue eyes?
                              One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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