If Rome survived....

[Odin]

The western empire wast pretty much dead of the the water by 400 AD. The reason, I think, for the romans defeat to the germanic tribes was that the Roman army was mostly food soldiers, which were massacred by the Germans and thier Knights, which had stirrups.

I consider the Dark Ages as 470-900
The "lower" or "Feudal" Middle ages as 900-1100
the "High" Middle ages as 1100-1400
the Rennesance as 1400-1600

[Ramo]

Actually, the stirrup was developed centuries after the fall of the Western empire. Heavy cavalry (knights) didn't become the bulk of Germanic armies until after the (East) Romans started the trend in the 7th century. Heavy cavalry became the heart of Roman armies in fact partially to counter the light cavalry of barbarian invaders.

Actually, the Western Empire was ultimately doomed because of the measles and small pox epidemics.

[Sprayber]

Re: If Rome survived....

Originally posted by Dracon II
I was watching the movie Titus (based on the Shakespearean play) and it made me think....
what would have happened if the Roman Empire survived into the modern era? What do you guys reckon?

Watched it a few times. A great movie

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Odin
the Roman army was mostly food soldiers, which were massacred by the Germans and thier Knights, which had stirrups.

Food soldiers? You mean the Germans ate them? And they used their stirrups on them to boot? That must have blown Roman morale all to h**l.





Yeah, I know it was a typo, but it was too funny to pass up.)

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Food soldiers? You mean the Germans ate them? And they used their stirrups on them to boot? That must have blown Roman morale all to h**l.





Yeah, I know it was a typo, but it was too funny to pass up.)

KInd of reminds me of this

[DanS]

I like Strangelove's explanation of the fall, since it shows the deterioration of what held the empire together in the first place: trade, communications, infrastructure, and administration. With the absence of these things, urban life--i.e., what creates wealth and civilization--is impossible. And funding an army consistently is difficult.

Don't know what UR's been smoking.

[Ramo]

Well, the reasons for de-urbanization were intimately connected with the Empire's population decline. The only way you reverse de-urbanization is if you take the small pox, measles, and bubonic plague epidemics out of Rome's history.

[Ned]

Actually, the Western Empire was in a horrid state of decline even prior to Germans overrunning it. Road (and building construction) had largely ceased by the mid 300's. Road maintenance fell apart in the 400's. The Western Romans faced a chronic manpower shortage for troops, primarily caused by Diocletion's laws tying one to his father’s profession. As well, Diocletion's price controls had a lot to do with the gradual collapse of trade and Rome's monetary system and its replacement with a barter system, a.k.a., feudalism.

When government totally collapsed, the Church stepped in to fill the gaps with birth and marriage records, and with the recording of land deeds. However, the educational system vanished entirely.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ramo
Well, the reasons for de-urbanization were intimately connected with the Empire's population decline. The only way you reverse de-urbanization is if you take the small pox, measles, and bubonic plague epidemics out of Rome's history.

I believe de-urbanization was mainly caused by the rise of feudalism which was well under way prior to the German conquests.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Ned
Just a point on Rome's collapse, there is point where Stilcho has Alaric trapped in Greece; but he gets away because of the Eastern Emperor, Arcadius, asks him to leave. Rome never recovered from this as Alaric goes on to instigate the collapse of the West.

I thought that Alaric captured Athens and diverted at last minute from going to Constantinople thanks to a large bribe... He also devastated Corinth.

But the reason he left the Eastern Empire was money.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ned]

Originally posted by paiktis22


I thought that Alaric captured Athens and diverted at last minute from going to Constantinople thanks to a large bribe... He also devastated Corinth.

But the reason he left the Eastern Empire was money.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

A quote:

Stilicho responded to Alaric's raiding by going after him with an army. Alaric, however, slipped across the frontier into Arcadius' half of the empire. Stilicho went after him and had him effectively trapped, but Alaric escaped Stilicho's grasp when Arcadius ordered Stilicho to leave Eastern territory with his army. Stilicho meekly obeyed because he respected and worked to preserve the imperial system during these troublesome times. The Visigoths continued down the Peloponnesian Peninsula, sacking cities as they went. Athens managed to ransom herself from the devastation, but Megara, Corinth, Sparta, and many other Greek cities of great antiquity experienced Alaric's wrath and rapine. In the meantime, Stilicho was inspecting the defenses on the Rhine frontier. Stilicho returned and again went after Alaric, this time crossing the Adriatic and cornering him in the frozen wasteland between the mountains and the Gulf of Corinth. It is not exactly clear what happened next, but Alaric again escaped annihilation. According to Zosimus, he escaped across the Gulf of Corinth, which had frozen due to a terribly cold Winter that year. Arcadius again ordered Stilicho to remove his legions from the East. Alaric broke off his raids after he was given the post of MAGISTER MILITVM PER ILLYRICVM (Master General of Illyricum) and a place in which to settle his followers. By this time, it was hard to determine whether the men that followed Alaric were Roman allied troops following a Roman officer or independent Gothic troops following their king.

[chequita guevara]

Feudalism may have ended the empire's future, but it was necessary when it was enacted, because too many people were leaving the land. Food production was dropping and the cities can't survive without lots of farms.

[Bereta_Eder]

Ned, that's pretty much correct AFAIK.

I was pointing to the sources that say that Alaric was persuaded to leave the Eastern Empire after a huge bribe.
But there is more to it than that, you're right. He also managed to play one Empire against the other in a period were tensions were mounting.

BTW

Alaric came from one of the leading "royal" families of the Visigoths, and some sources even say he was a son of Fritigern -- leading tribal leaders spread their seed to cement their tribal federations. Like other tribal princes from all over the empire, Alaric was brought to Constantinople to attend the new military academy that Theodosius had established. The students, also part hostages, were indoctrinated and hopefully converted to the Roman/Byzantine way of thinking. He must have been a good student. After graduation, he quickly rose through the ranks, and, by 392 AD, was leading more than 20,000 Visigothic "foederatae" (troops recruited from tribes federated with Rome) at the Battle of the River Frigidus.

I think he was

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Feudalism may have ended the empire's future, but it was necessary when it was enacted, because too many people were leaving the land. Food production was dropping and the cities can't survive without lots of farms.

Yeah, and that was caused by the idiot's price controls.

[chequita guevara]

And constant German invasions.