would invading Iraq have been such a bad idea

[Serb]

I’m talking about the same. There is no strong opposition to Saddam in Iraq, like Northern Alliance in Afghanistan opposed the Taliban. With whom you gonna replace Saddam? Which proxy army will hold this territory for you/ I don’t see such force in Iraq. Perhaps you know?

[Felch]

Why don't we kick North Korea's ass instead? Wouldn't it be more fun, and we could just extend Seoul's authority northward thereby eliminating the whole "future lackey" problem?

[Felch]

Originally posted by Azazel
ahem.

Well, the US and it's top allies. How's that?

I'm sure the Aussies and Kiwis probably give their guys NV also.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Felch X
Why don't we kick North Korea's ass instead? Wouldn't it be more fun, and we could just extend Seoul's authority northward thereby eliminating the whole "future lackey" problem?

Because without full Japanese and S.Korea agreement (and Chinese aquiecense) such a war is impossible, and since Tokyo is within nuclear tipped missile range, and Seoul within 11,000 pieces of artillery range, neither of those states will go into such a war withou massive DPRK provocation.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Felch X
Why don't we kick North Korea's ass instead? Wouldn't it be more fun, and we could just extend Seoul's authority northward thereby eliminating the whole "future lackey" problem?

Without nuking NK, there's no way the US could fight NK without an all out military draft. North Korea has a 3 million man standing army, plus a more modern military force than Iraq, and they have nuclear weapons (according to BBC reports on NPR). If the US started a war with NK, you can bet Seoul and Tokyo would glow in the dark.

[GePap]

People keep looking at all these issues simply from a military point of view but Clausewitz was correct: war is politics by other means. Winning a war does not only mean beating an army: it means remaking the political map in your favor. The type of war the US is envisioning in Iraq by itself does ntohing to make the map of the ME more US friendly. The occupation aftre the war is the key period to any Iraq operation, and that is the bit no one is thinking of. The Allies were trying to put together post war plans in ww2 by 1943, almost 2 years before full military victory. Our war in Iraq will take about 4 weeks, and yet we have no worthwhile plans for a future Iraq as is. That is our Achilles heel, and where this whole little enterprise might flounder and come back to bite us in the ass bigtime later on. Until the Bushies come up with a worthwhile political map for AS +1 (After Saddam) I think this comming war (and it is coming) is a terrible mistake.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Felch X
Why don't we kick North Korea's ass instead? Wouldn't it be more fun, and we could just extend Seoul's authority northward thereby eliminating the whole "future lackey" problem?

Why not Cuba- they have cigars? Why not South Africa- they have diamonds? Why not Saudi Arbia- they have oil? Oh wait a minute you'll take oil from Iraq. On the other hand there is no such thing as unnecessary oil, right?
What North Korea could give you, except troubles?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by GePap
People keep looking at all these issues simply from a military point of view but Clausewitz was correct: war is politics by other means. Winning a war does not only mean beating an army: it means remaking the political map in your favor. The type of war the US is envisioning in Iraq by itself does ntohing to make the map of the ME more US friendly. The occupation aftre the war is the key period to any Iraq operation, and that is the bit no one is thinking of. The Allies were trying to put together post war plans in ww2 by 1943, almost 2 years before full military victory. Our war in Iraq will take about 4 weeks, and yet we have no worthwhile plans for a future Iraq as is. That is our Achilles heel, and where this whole little enterprise might flounder and come back to bite us in the ass bigtime later on. Until the Bushies come up with a worthwhile political map for AS +1 (After Saddam) I think this comming war (and it is coming) is a terrible mistake.

You know, you're really going to have to stop saying things I agree with. You can say the same about Afghanistan, as well, or just a general lack of foreign policy vision in the Bush administration.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sava


Without nuking NK, there's no way the US could fight NK without an all out military draft. North Korea has a 3 million man standing army, plus a more modern military force than Iraq, and they have nuclear weapons (according to BBC reports on NPR). If the US started a war with NK, you can bet Seoul and Tokyo would glow in the dark.

No draft would be necessary - that 3 million man army is more a paper force, and can't sustain ops in the field.

Seoul would not be a target for a nuke, since there's plenty of tube and rocket artillery dug into the NK side of the DMZ that could obliterate Seoul anyway.

The real problem with invasion is the terrain, and the lack of any worthwhile objective other than regime change. It's simply not worth the cost, since Kim ain't going anywhere.

[johncmcleod]

I disagree with Sava-I believe that Iraq is more of a threat to world peace. I think the US has done a lot more peacekeeping than Iraq. Who's trying to build WOMD? Who hailed a day where thousands of innocent people died as a great day? Who supports terrorism? Who completely hates a country with all of its hundreds of millions of habitants?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Iraq isn't Afghanistan, Serb. Stop trying to fight the last war.

The US puppet over there isn't doing exactly well.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Who's trying to build WOMD?

Yeah, who? Who has the biggest stockpile of CBN weapons? Should the US go after that country?

Wait a minute, that'd civil war.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Who hailed a day where thousands of innocent people died as a great day?

*cough*Nagasaki*cough*

[Sava]

hey johnmcleod, allow me to knock you off your pedastal...

What's the only country to use the atomic bomb?
What country percipitated the nuclear arms race?
What country possesses the most nuclear weapons?
What country sells the most arms?
What country pushed for sanctions in Iraq that has led to the deaths of nearly 600,000 Iraqis since 1998?
What country is pressing for war in Iraq, Iran, and now North Korea?

hmmm.... and Iraq is a bigger threat to world peace?

[Arrian]

Two quibbles, Sava. Your first, second, third and fourth points are fine. But your last two are unfair:

1) accurate figures on Iraqi suffering brought about by sanctions (indirectly in my opinion, in that Saddam bears primary responsibility for it) are pretty much impossible to come by. Where did you get the figure of 600K?
2) Pressing for war with Iraq? Absolutely. Pressing for war with Iran and NK? No. Labeling them evil? Yes. Is that stupid? Yes. But you exaggerate, as usual.

-Arrian