Time for democrats to admit they underestimated President Bush

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Clear Skies


I'd like better reasons why you don't accept it. I'm quite prepared for you not to, I'd just like some more justification. And some evidence the other way, if possible.
And IIRC there was a case brought to the attention of the Supreme Court where someone did try and do something about it. Palm Beach Springs Electoral Commission, IIRC. The people who delivered that report that you won't accept, for reasons you haven't given. If an official report isn't enough for you, what is?

If someone did try to do something about it, and the case was brought before the supreme court, and nothing has come of it, then why do you persist in believing there is some kind of conspiracy? As for evidence the other way, the burden of proof is on you, the accuser.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ah, Clear Skies has been affected by that disease known as Whiny-Gore-Democrat Syndrome .

[Caligastia]

[rah]

He's not alone, based on the more than occasional "letters to the editor" printed in the Chicago Tribune.

[Shi Huangdi]

Yes, some people were probably left off the voting roles by accident. This happened to some Republican voters too, I remember hearing on the news a would be Bush voter who was left off the voting roles after he had registered through the motor voter process. But Florida also had many illegal votes cast in by prisoners who weren't supposed to vote as well as illegal immigrants. Here in Pennsylvania some precincts that went for Gore had more votes then the total population. Fraud happens in every election and the Democrats are by no means innocent of it.

Also, remember Gore had an artificial advantage due to the media. The media networks all called Florida for Gore while the polls were still open in the Western panhandle, which is in a different timezone and is an area that is heavily pro-Bush. As a result, many voters stayed home. The call turned out to be inaccurate, but it was not until after the polls had closed that the media announced Florida to be in the too close to call column. Had the media not made it's errant call in favor of Gore, Bush probably would have gotten alot more votes.

[Ned]

Bush does deserves some knocks for mashing his words at times just as many of us here deserve knocks for bad typing, grammar and spelling.

Some democrats will always underestimate any Republican. They certainly underestimated Nixon, Reagan and now Bush. There is a pattern. Each of these presidents showed strong leadership on foreign policy issues that spilled over into domestic popularity. Democrats on the whole care very little about foreign policy, but care a lot about social welfare issues where they think they have an unassailable position. I think they do indeed have the populist position on theise issues that guarantees an instant majority of the electorate. But many Americans still vote Republican because they trust Republicans more than Democrats on foreign policy issues.

And, as we have seen, Bush has done very well since 9/11 on foreign policy.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Actually he's been crap on foreign policy, but great on politics.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Actually he's been crap on foreign policy, but great on politics.

Yes, I would conceed that to him

What a great leader....

[Imran Siddiqui]

Um... that wasn't supposed to be funny.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Yes, some people were probably left off the voting roles by accident.

Actually, it was done deliberately. Kate Harris's office sent the company a letter telling them to (illegally) take knock people off the list if the name was even close or even had as few as one of the nine required criteria to be placed on the no vote list. When Greg Palast showed this letter to the man who had issued it on BBC TV, he tore off his mike and ran, not walked, away from the interview.

Kate Harris' office also told all the counties in Florida they were required to use the list and weren't allowd to let anyone on the list vote unless they could prove they were allowed (when county commissioner tossed the list after she discovered her name on it). This requiring the counties to use this illegal list was also illegal.

This list was still in force in the 2002 election, despite the State of Florida agreeing to no longer use the list in a settlement with the NAACP. Of the 94,000 names on the list, as many as 91,000 lack the full cirteria to be on the list.

This was not accidental, and it easily provided the margin of victory in 2000 (though not in 2002).

[chequita guevara]

Actually, Democrats haven't underestimated the President so much as they underestimated themselves. They didn't think they could take on the President, so they didn't try except where they thought it was safe, on social security and perscription medicine.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by rah
He's not alone, based on the more than occasional "letters to the editor" printed in the Chicago Tribune.

Rah: Tell Clear Skies about elections in Chicago.

[Shi Huangdi]

Even assuming Katherine Harris intentionally illegaly disenfranchised voters, it is not clear how many would have voted, and it still does not take away the various frauds and illegal actions taking by the Democrats throughout the country. Neither side ever has clean hands in an election. But although the election back then was confused, it is clear now a good majority of the populace supports Bush, and his support was reaffirmed by the 2002 election.

[chequita guevara]

Chicago elections aren't all the dirty anymore. Haven't been since the Daley machine was destroyed with the election of Mayor Jane Byrne (sp?).

There is still corruption in the elections, but not of the voting dead or missing ballots variety.

My buddy was working a campaign for an alderman who wasn't part of the new Daley machine. As he's canvassing, he gets jumped by six thugs who whack him in the knees. His thought at the time however, wasn't oh SH*T!, HELP! but, "You know, I've always knew this tuff happened, but I can't believe it's happening to ME." The Daley candidate won.

ANother example, my evil landlord from hell brought our alderwoman by, a corrupt and evil crone by the name of Vilma Colom (to whom I was completely opposed). They wanted us to sign a petition to help get Colom on the ballot. I hid in the bedroom, Bunnygrrl signed the petition. Definately not a good idea to piss off the machine to its face.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Even assuming Katherine Harris intentionally illegaly disenfranchised voters, it is not clear how many would have voted,

Assuming a little less than half would have voted (given the overall rates in the population), the percentage of the people knocked of the list that were Black (46%) and Black voting for Gore (80%), it is probably that had then not been prevented from voting Gore would have won Florida by 7,000 votes.

As for what the Dems did in the rest of the country, I can't say. It was likely canceled out by what the Republicans did in the rest of the country.