It is done...Dutch right wing governement collapses

[DeepO]

okay, I'll shut up now

DeepO

[Robert]

you say all sins are equal, yet some sins are bigger than others.

No, I speak out against the "some sins are bigger than others" thing.
But some things are sins, some times are not sins. That's what I say.

GL is the only green party. And it's support is not needed to get a majority in votes.

CU is greener than GL.
Extreme Pro-Green people have even voted CU in the last elections, eventhough they disagree on much of the political issues.

I'll try to get a link.

[Robert]

from: http://www.milieudefensie.nl/blad/20...rkiezingen.htm

(Milieudefensie)
quote: (I'm sorry, it's a dutch website)

De programma's van GroenLinks, ChristenUnie en SP steken daarbij ronduit groen af. Het programma van de ChristenUnie getuigt van een heldere analyse, bevat veel concrete maatregelen en presenteert daarnaast in kaders informatief achtergrondmateriaal. De partij pleit voor een radicaal andere omgang met de schepping en voor een radicale breuk met de consumptieve levensstijl. Heldere taal - of je het nu eens bent met hun overige opvattingen of niet. Ook de programma's van GroenLinks en SP geven een overzicht van milieuproblemen en noemen veel specifieke maatregelen. Gedegen, redelijk voorspelbaar en soms zelfs origineel.

and at another page on their site:

http://www.milieudefensie.nl/blad/2002/maart2002/veling.htm

Laat nu uitgerekend de ChristenUnie - de samenvoeging van de twee kleine maar stevig christelijke partijen GPV en RPF - een van de groenste verkiezingsprogramma's hebben.

[Saint Marcus]

No, I speak out against the "some sins are bigger than others" thing.
But some things are sins, some times are not sins. That's what I say.

sorry, I misread.

CU is greener than GL.

please clarify...

[Robert]

please clarify...

just did that in the post above yours.

[Saint Marcus]

from the CU and GL websites:

Groenlinks:

-Law on Consumer Information. All products should display information on "samenstelling, productiewijze, duurzaamheid en energieverbruik".
-Tax on pollution is increased. Tax on labour can be lowered.
-Governement should purchase enviromental friendly product, to set a good example.
-Statiegeld verplicht voor plastic
-pushing for an end of enviroment-unfriendly policies worldwide. focus: WTO, IMF, Worldbank
-Deltaplan Durable Energy.Target: 10% durable energy in the Netherlands in 2010.
-Kyoto demands are met withing Holland itself, plus decreasing CO2 emmisions in non-EU countries.
-Total energy use should be lowered by 5% in 4 years.
-Energytax for grootverbruikers
-Clear information on Green, Grey and Black energy
-Nuclear plants in Holland, EU and the World should close.

ChristenUnie:

-pushing for an end of enviroment-unfriendly policies worldwide. focus: EU
-taxes aimed to lower emmisions
-better control on companies' enviromental policies
-Kyoto demands met
-40-60% CO2 emmision reduction worldwide in 2030. support poor countries in this.
-Kyoto-2 treaty also applies to underdeveloped countries
-CO2 sinks allowed, but within limits
-more supervision on bodemsanering
-fight noise pollution
-clear and constistent waste policy. limited statiegeld on plastic
-European policy for the clearing and processing of waste
-strong control of fireworks
-strong control on transport of chemicals and other dangerous materials
-companies should make give information on the "persistentie, bio-accumulatie, toxiciteit" of the products used



you'll be the judge

[Saint Marcus]

Laat nu uitgerekend de ChristenUnie - de samenvoeging van de twee kleine maar stevig christelijke partijen GPV en RPF - een van de groenste verkiezingsprogramma's hebben.

alright

this does mean you think the CU are liars though. After all, parties who support pro-green policies are all liars, according to you

[Robert]

this does mean you think the CU are liars though. After all, parties who support pro-green policies are all liars, according to you

about their green issues: yes indeed, or they must know not better. I think it'll be the latter. I think that'll be the case with GL as well btw.

In fact that must be the thing with all of those greenish people. I'm sure they fight for what they think that is right.

Something that must be respected for sure.

[Saint Marcus]

so they are liars, yet you still support (and in this thread) defend them. Hmmm

Can we just say that you hate Rosenmoller personally, and not his policies in general? since you only called the GL liars, and not the SP and CU with pro-green policies.

Something that must be respected for sure.

Yet you disrespect Rosenmoller...

[Robert]

Saint Marcus: so they are liars, yet you still support (and in this thread) defend them. Hmmm

No, I support CDA, not CU.
And it's ok with me if you dislike CU, but I like it when the CU will be disprespected for the right reasons.
It's as if someone will say that the SP is against poor people, in that case I would for sure stand up.

Can we just say that you hate Rosenmoller personally, and not his policies in general? since you only called the GL liars, and not the SP and CU with pro-green policies.

No, I like Rosenmuller personally (not in person, since I never met him in person)
He seems to be a nice guy.
I dislike the way he debates though.

I think I respect him for coming up for the weak, while he's self rich. And I respect him for defending the environment as well, but I dislike his argumentation and all that.

And yes, my opinion on people is not simplistic

[Saint Marcus]

earlier this thread you said something different

I disrespect Rosenmuller very much...Besides that do I very disprespect the green-liars.

[Robert]

I disrespect Rosenmuller very much...Besides that do I very disprespect the green-liars.

ok. That wasn't phrased very well from me.
I disrespect the way Rosenmuller debates, with as example the famous Rosenmuller-Fortuyn thing.

I do not disprespect the green-front for their ideals, but I do disrespect them for their very short-sighted view on things, with as an example the nuclear reactors, or the Brent Spar, or wind-energy or public transport. (how can public transport every replace cars, while it is already topping it's limits right now! What if about 20% of the car-drivers actually decides to use public transport? That would be a mess. I get their point, but it's impossible to replace the car by the buss or the train. And it'll cost billions to fix that.)

[DeepO]

Public transport isn't the solution to stopping with individual transport, tele-working is. This would mean a reduction of costs on all aspects and is perfectly possible with the current infrastructure, however it has other (community) problems. It just doesn't work, which politicians seem to know, where green energy doesn't work either but politicians don't bother.

BTW: green programs are nice, but I'd be surprised to see much of these points reflected in a governmental agreement.

DeepO

[Saint Marcus]

Cybershy: do you think building more roads will fix the transportation problem? that's what the CDA and VVD are doing...

(and it's already been proven the results of such actions are marginal at best.)

[Robert]

Cybershy: do you think building more roads will fix the transportation problem? that's what the CDA and VVD are doing...

More roads will not fix the problem.
But in example, I drive from Delft to Woerden everyday,
A4 - A12
Prince Claus Square, A13, A12 and A4 merge together, and split into A12 and A4 (to Utrecht and to Amsterdam)
Since all cars come from all sides and have to move to all sides, it's one mess there, with cars switching lanes, from the 4th to the 1st lane, and back.

A solution there could be some fly-overs, so cars who have to stay on the A4 will not be bothered with the cars who come from the A13 and want to go to the A12 etc. etc.

Another example: The A12 merges with the A20 after Gouda, 2 + 2 lanes is 4 lanes. No problem there, but further it goes back from 4 to 3 lanes, and right before Woerden it becomes 4 lanes again. On the way to Woerden and on the way back, right before the 4 to 3 lanes switch there's a big que every day.

Make the middle-part 4 lanes as well, and the problem is solved. That counts for the A4 near Zoetewouderijndijk as well. And there are much more examples.

Some roads like the A13 and the A9 do need more lanes in general. The A13 is the busiest highway in Europe, between Den Haag and Rotterdam.

But in the end we need to search for better solutions indeed!

Pim Fortuyn talked about parkplaces outside the city with metro's who bring the people into the city within minutes. that will do a lot.

I wouldn't have any problems with driving from Delft to Amsterdam, to park my car on a huge parkplace just outside Amsterdam, to take the metro to Slotedijk, where I have to work oftenly for the Telegraaf. That would save me from driving the Ring A10.

Taking the train from Delft CS to Amsterdam Slotedijk is no option for me. I have to travel 15 minutes by bike to get at Delft CS, than I have to step over on Den Haag HS and on Amsterdam CS again, and after that I hvae to walk another 5 minutes.