Will it come down to us v.s. them?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, if you are a terrorist ground in Indonesia, you really have a limited oppertunity to take out Americans.

Remember, although OBL is the 'leader' of Al Queda, it is a very fragmented group, which really has no primary authority.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
China is really poor because they don't have democracy right? And like che said, the US has one of the greatest weath disparties in the world, the distribution isn't done very well (and that is by design, btw).

The only reason China hasn't imploded yet is that authoritarianism is keeping order. This is cruel but true. Had the communist party collapsed in '89, China would have been torn apart by social chaos and economic ruin. It wouldn't be half of what it is now, not a quarter. It would be nothing, as it had already been for a century under surge after surge of populist movements.

The same, in fact, can be said about South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong, the 4 Asian Economic Miracles. All achieved their greatest growth and prosperity under dictatorships - SK and Taiwan have switched while Sin. and HK haven't, but is that really a variable?? Is democracy really that great a variable in deciding between prosperity and poverty?

Compare to India, for instance,... did democracy help alot? Did democracy help Germany in 1933? Is democracy helping Zimbabwe today?

They did!! The Muslim empire streached from France to India at one point. And later on went to the wall of Vienna. Ask Greeks on this site if the Muslim Turks weren't imperialist.

The only problem was that the Islamic world was falling at the same time the European world was rising, and it was that time that industrialization was discovered

Islamic culture didn't prevent it from being the richest empire in the world in the 1200s. All the places that Islam conquered in Europe at that time (Spain, Siciliy) were by far the richest areas in the continent. And North Africa made Europe look like child's play.

Very true. Islamic (and Confucian) societies were way ahead of anything Europe could produce. The largest two cities in Europe in the Middle Ages, if I remember, were Muslim Cordoba and Byzantine Constantinople. Rome had barely 50,000 people (Venice later on went up to 100,000) when both Baghdad and Chang'an had 1,000,000+ people.

But it hasn't gained much sway except under colonialism and recently in the impoverished state of affairs of the ME. After independance, nationalist movements were in charge and Islamism was a minor portion.

As I said, it's the social condition that affects culture, not the other way around. No one in 1000 would believe you if you said that soon Christianity would be tolerant and Islam would become "extreme" - yet what made this happen? It's socioeconomic development in Europe and the lack of it in the ME. That's what changes culture, and cultures can only be changed again by socioeconomic development.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well, if you are a terrorist ground in Indonesia, you really have a limited oppertunity to take out Americans.

So you attack those who "looks like" and "talks like" an American, i.e., Aussies and Kiwis? That would make this attack an act of racism. There's also the possibility that like the terrorists in Egypt in the 90s they see the presence of non-muslims in their country as an attack on their culture. That's racist too.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
May I point out that the guys who bombed the clubs in Bali surely knew that very few of the casualties were likely to be Americans? In fact, they also almost certainly knew that the vast majority would be Australians and New Zealanders. Neither of those nations played much of a role in the Gulf War.

While we contribute the bodies, we are not the actual targets of such attacks. The attack on Bali was aimed at the tourism industry, which contributes major amounts of revenue to the Indonesian government. The people who contribute the bodies are incidental. The target was the Indonesian government.

The attacks on the US aren't really to make us feel helpless and powerless and make us give up. They are to inspire others. To show the people of Saudi Arabia tha the US can be hurt, that we aren't invincible, and that by extension, the government of Saudi Arabia can be overthrown.

One good thing may come out of the Bali blast. It reminds everyone that al-Qaeda is far from toothless and points out what an ass Bush is for ignoring it to carry out a persona vendetta against Hussein. So it may save more lives than it took.

[Gatekeeper]

Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that, perhaps, the Mongol invasions also played a role in bringing the glory of Islam to ruin? I understand that Iran never really recovered from the devastation inflicted by the Mongol armies. This isn't just evident in the Middle East either; I've read that part of Russia's xenophobia stems from the utter devastation wreaked upon them by Mongolia as well.

Gatekeeper

[Ned]

Gatekeeper, I saw a Russian movie on the period of Mongol occupation. In the movie, a Mongol army goes to help a Cossack prince take a Russian town. On the way, the Mongol sack a Russia villiage. The movie shows the random rapes, tortures and killings by the troops. Everyone is killed or worse.

When they take the town, the real fun begins. They take the local bishop an bind his hands and feet. They then pore molten lead or tar down his throat. Finally they drag him through the streets behind a horse.

The rapes, tortures and killing are exhibited in the background as the the protagonist talk strategy.

This goes on and on and on. The movie is simply unbelievable and horrorific.

(BTW, I saw a recent Russian movie to the same effect - but this time the barbarians were the Nazi's.)

The Russians have indeed survived some really savage conquerors.

[Mr. President]

You should have seen this issue National Geographic from a couple of years ago. It glorified the Mongol reign over Asia, talking about how they brought science and philosophy to the lands they conquered. Glossing over, of course, the mountains of skulls outside Samara and Kiev.

[Alexander's Horse]

Its not us versus them.

Its only a small minority of muslims who support extremists like OBL, just like its only a small minority who support the Klu Klux Klan or IRA. The Western world has its share of terrorists organisations, religious and political and otherwise.

The main difference today is with modern weapons and communications, small groups of violent people can make big impacts.

These muslim terrorist groups are a much bigger threat to muslim socieities than to Western countries actually.

[Pekka]

I believe it will come to that, eventually, unfortunately.
Terrorism against westerners will continue, and become more and more active. The west will blame them for it, not being able to control them. They will blame us from giving them reasons, keeping them in poverty etc. Accusations go back and forth, terrorism continues. It doesn't matter if one side is wrong or right.
And eventually, the west really starts to defend itself by attacking with force, since we can do it, not the other way around.

[Docfeelgood]

Please spare us your hypocrisy.

I'm sorry, but YOU don't know ME well enough to call me a raciest

If you can judge whats in my heart by me "yanking chains"........well then your a better man than I.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Docfeelgood
well then your a better man than I.

Even if I can't do that, I think this is a safe assumption.

[Docfeelgood]

If it will make you feel better....... then I will admitt your a better man than I.







better?

good



I just could not sleep knowing that I crushed a fragile ego

[Docfeelgood]

Hate?

hmmm...hate?

I am hated because I am an American.

I am hated because I am white.

I am hated because I am Jewish.

I am hated because I am bigger than most people.

I am hated because I am eccentric.

I am hated because I won the lottery and got millions.

I am hated because I have a beautiful wife.

I am hated because my wife is not white.

People hate me for many reasons.

Even with all this hate on me I could never or could ever kill another human being.


This is what I find hard to understand.

It is much easier to kill for ones cause than to live up to them.


Acctually, I feel sorry for them.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


While we contribute the bodies, we are not the actual targets of such attacks. The attack on Bali was aimed at the tourism industry, which contributes major amounts of revenue to the Indonesian government. The people who contribute the bodies are incidental. The target was the Indonesian government.

How do you 'know' this? Isn't it remotely possible that the bombing took place in Bali because that's where the largest concentration of non-Muslim 'Westerners' and Asians were going to be? After all- Bali is predominantly Hindu, and I'm sure Islamic extremists have learnt their lesson to some extent, after the politically disastrous bombings of American embassies/consulates in Africa, which killed a great many African 'non-combatants'.

If the blasts were aimed at the Indonesian government then the targets would have been better found in Aceh- where Indonesian special forces and army groups have been responsible for the kinds of torture and random killings found in other troubled parts of the Indonesian archipelago- like West Papua and East Timor.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Read my responses to David Floyd and Gangerolf.

The ME does not have a 1st millenium economy. They have 21st century economies. The problem is their economies are that of neo-colonies in the 21st century rather than imperialist countries in 21st century or even simply developed nations in the 21st century.

You got some pretty words there fella, now what in tarnation do they all mean? When you say middle eastern nations most folks (who actually care) would think of those countries along the northern coast of Africa, and then everything between the Bosporus Straits to the border of India. You're saying that these countries are all "neo-colonies"? What kind of colonies form power blocks (OPEC, UAR, Arab League) hostile to their alleged "colonial masters"? What kind of colonies manage to stage successful boycotts of their alleged overlords without suffering reprisals. What kind of colonies enter into alliances with their alleged repressors' enemies ( USSR - Egypt, - Syria, - Iraq, - Afghanistan, - Libya)? It seems to me that this whole concept of "neo-colonialism" is pretty much meaningless.

Oh, and let's see a list of the 57 countries the US has overthrown / intervened in in the past 57 years. Please do not include any examples of UN sponsored police actions (Korea, etc,), rescue missions (Grenada, etc.).