Bloodbath in Gaza

[CyberGnu]

This is why Israeli insistence on an immediate resolution of the refugee problem could put significant pressure on Arabs to finally acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

How would that work? How can Israel insist on other states taking care of the problem Israel caused, and why do you expect them to feel pressured by it?

Not even the US demands that the arab world should clean up Israels mess... Only that they should accept Israels right to exist, which they have all done by now.

[Ned]

CyberGnu, The existence of the refugees in their camps awaiting a return to Israel without hope of permanent settlement anywhere else in the Arab world tells me that the Arabs have not accepted Israel's right to exist.

[CyberGnu]

BTW, Sharon today said "I believe there is a real chance that the coming year could be a turning point."

If I was a palestinian I would find this a good time to barricade my house...

When a war criminal known as 'the bulldozer' tells you that 'a turning point is coming', it can only mean one thing: The next step of Sharons Endlosung is near...

[CyberGnu]

CyberGnu, The existence of the refugees in their camps awaiting a return to Israel without hope of permanent settlement anywhere else in the Arab world tells me that the Arabs have not accepted Israel's right to exist.

And why is that?

[Ned]

Originally posted by CyberGnu


But this argument is fundamentally flawed...

Israel could easily solve the RoR by partitioning off some of the land within the green mile. Obviously citizens of a different country would not affect the demographics of Israel.

So, with that argument debunked, we are left with a very different conclusion. The continuing existence of the refugees in their camps is testament to the continuing greed of Israel.

I am not sure about "easily." I am very skeptical that there can be any mass return of the refugees to present day Israel or Palestine in any manner that would not result a human disaster for the refugees or result in a fundamental demographic change for Israel where the Jews would find themselves a minority within their own borders.

[CyberGnu]

I am not sure about "easily." I am very skeptical that there can be any mass return of the refugees to present day Israel or Palestine in any manner that would not result a human disaster for the refugees or result in a fundamental demographic change for Israel where the Jews would find themselves a minority within their own borders.

Ned, this doesn't feel like you.... You usually put more thought into your posts.

Look, by partitioning off a piece of Israel, the returning refugees would not be within Israels borders. It's very simple.

[Ned]

Originally posted by CyberGnu


And why is that?

As I said, the Arabs fully intend that GA resolution 194 be implemented. This means the refugees, 5.5 million strong according to their own estimates, return to Israel. When this occurs, Jews become a minority in Israel. It makes just as much sense then to fully integrate Israel into a greater Palestinian state with Arab domination. In essence Israel would cease to exist. The original Arab and Palestinian goal will have been achieved.

Of course, Jews would be free to leave, or better yet, flee.

[Ned]

Originally posted by CyberGnu


Ned, this doesn't feel like you.... You usually put more thought into your posts.

Look, by partitioning off a piece of Israel, the returning refugees would not be within Israels borders. It's very simple.

What this sounds like is taking a further piece of Israel, giving it to the current Pals, an settling the refugees there.

But, is this possible?

[CyberGnu]

As I said, the Arabs fully intend that GA resolution 194 be implemented. This means the refugees, 5.5 million strong according to their own estimates, return to Israel. When this occurs, Jews become a minority in Israel. It makes just as much sense then to fully integrate Israel into a greater Palestinian state with Arab domination. In essence Israel would cease to exist. The original Arab and Palestinian goal will have been achieved.

Of course, Jews would be free to leave, or better yet, flee.

Well, again, not if the refugees got a substantial piece of land to live in... Complete with infrastructure and everything, of course.

[CyberGnu]

What this sounds like is taking a further piece of Israel, giving it to the current Pals, an settling the refugees there.

But, is this possible?

Depends on how greedy Israel is, doesn't it? AFAIK, there is no practical problems involved...

[Ned]

I'm sorry CyberGnu, but this seems extremely far-fetched. The reason I say this is that that the whole of Palestine, including Israel, is now densely populated. I don't see how Israel could carve a small piece of land from within its current borders to give to 5.5 million refugees, whom, I presume, would become part of the new Palestinian state.

Simply from refugees point of view, they should either integrate into the state where they are now or move back to the West Bank. I know they desire to move back to their ancestral homes within the borders of Israel. But, until there is snow in Hell, I don't think that will ever happen. Nor should anyone encourage them to believe that this will happen, ever. To the extent that they continue to cling to this faint hope, they only prolong their misery by preventing integration into Arab society outside Palestine.

[chequita guevara]

Not all of the refugees would return to Israel proper. Many refugees fled the occupation of the territories, and repatration would put them in a Palestinian state. Anyway, if there were danger of Israel losing its Jewish identity, many more Jews from around the world would "return."

Israel has no right to be a Jewish state any more than any other state has a right to limit itself by ethnicity. Very few such states exist, and are technically against international law.

As well, international law mandates the repatriation of refugees. Morally and legally Israel must allow the refugees and their familes to return home.

The bigger problem for Israel would be having to uproot all those Jews they moved onto Palestinian property and finding room and jobs for an influx of millions.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Not all of the refugees would return to Israel proper. Many refugees fled the occupation of the territories, and repatration would put them in a Palestinian state. Anyway, if there were danger of Israel losing its Jewish identity, many more Jews from around the world would "return."

Israel has no right to be a Jewish state any more than any other state has a right to limit itself by ethnicity. Very few such states exist, and are technically against international law.

As well, international law mandates the repatriation of refugees. Morally and legally Israel must allow the refugees and their familes to return home.

The bigger problem for Israel would be having to uproot all those Jews they moved onto Palestinian property and finding room and jobs for an influx of millions.

Well, Che, I don't know that I agree with you on whether Israel has a right to be a Jewish state. Isn't this the flip of the right of self-determination of peoples?

I think the illegality ensues if they are guilty of apartheid. This entail a systematic subjugation of a racially different people for reason of race. Subjugaton and disccrimination based on religion is not apartheid. If it were, England, for example, would be guilty.

[chequita guevara]

We could debate back and forth, but I would argue that self-determination doesn't give you the right to exclude native inhabitants (including refugees). Self-determination means a nation can't be kept in someone else's state against it's will. So the Jews have a right to self-determination, but they don't have a right to ethnically cleanse the place.

You might want to take a close look at the differences between the rights of Arab Israelis and the privelges of Jewish Israelis. Also consider how the Palestinians are treated in the occupied territories and then compare this to Apartheid. You will find them very similar. It's ethnic discrimination, because Christian Palestinians (8% of the Palestinian pop) are discriminated against also.

[CyberGnu]

I'm sorry CyberGnu, but this seems extremely far-fetched. The reason I say this is that that the whole of Palestine, including Israel, is now densely populated. I don't see how Israel could carve a small piece of land from within its current borders to give to 5.5 million refugees, whom, I presume, would become part of the new Palestinian state.

How? Well, it wouldn't be cheap, of course. But considering that the cost was already payed by the refugees, I don't see how that would be an argument.

Look, Ned, I don't think this will happen. But saying that it can't happen is just plain wrong. Israel can solve the RoR, but it isn't prepeared to do so.

This is an important point. If, as you argue, there really was no possibility for Israel to do anything about it, your argument would have some weight to it.

But as it is, Israel can but won't, which puts the blame squarely back on Israel.

Nor should anyone encourage them to believe that this will happen, ever. To the extent that they continue to cling to this faint hope, they only prolong their misery by preventing integration into Arab society outside Palestine.

This is where you are on thin ice. You are essentially advocating that might gives right. "Israel stole their land, but Israel isn;t prepared to give it back, therefore no one should even hint at their right to get it back". While practically sound, it is still morally repugnant. You see?