Bloodbath in Gaza

[CyberGnu]

I hope it can be solved by money, since that seems to be the only open option, right?

And I think that Arafat can agree on a lot lower sum than the hundred of billions of dollars from the original UN assessment. But arguing that the payment should be reduced because of compensation TO israel is a slap in the face.

Because of Israels actions do millions of palestinians live in poverty. How do you think they react to Israels demand for compensation? How do you think they would react to a deal where the amount of money the refugees obtain is reduced because of this?

I think you could more easily sell a deal where palestine recieves 10 billion in a pure compensation, than one where they get 20 billion minus 5 billion in compensation, even though the total would be greater.

As it is, however, Israel categorically refuses to give more than a pittance to the ROR. Allowing 10.000 people to live in Israel is not exactly a constructive offer, when there are 3.5 million refugees.

[Ned]

I agree that the Pals should not accept an offset for Jewish land other Arab states confiscated. The other Arab states have to compensate Israel. One way to do this is by paying the Pals in lieu of paying Israel, i.e., assuming Israel's debt to the refugees. The payments to the refugees could be made as part of a refugee integration plan into Arab societies.

BTW, I really do not understand why there are still camps so long after the '48 war. I smell a rat here. It is almost as if the Arabs or someone were deliberately blocking Palestinian integration.

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by Ned


BTW, Why is Sweden not part of NATO. Are you still neutral?

We're ruled by socialists....

[Drake Tungsten]

It is almost as if the Arabs or someone were deliberately blocking Palestinian integration.

No one gives a **** about the Pals, Israeli or Arab.

Both sides are wrong in this but in many ways the Arabs seem worse to me. They claim that the Pals are their Muslim brothers, but then they continue to let the Pals live in squalid refugee camps for cynical reasons. The Pals are just a tool in the eyes of the Arab states, a tool to be used to weaken Israel. Israel's treatment of the Pals isn't any better, but at least the Pals are an enemy of Israel. The Arabs claim that the Pals are their friends, but they still continue to oppress them. With "friends" like these, who needs enemies? Unfortunately, the Pals have both...

[CyberGnu]

Ned, the reason the camps are still there are both ideological and practical. On the practical level, the rulers of surrounding areas are afraid of integrating a substantial number of people with a different ethnicity. See Jordan as an example - do you realy think the king of Jordan wants MORE palestinians?

On the ideological level, it is hard to explain to the arab masses why the arab world accepts the burden of the refugees, when it is Israels actions that displaced them. See what I mean?

[CyberGnu]

Alkis, are you swedish?

Drake, see my answer to Ned

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Alkis, are you swedish?

Ja, och nykterist ;P

[Saint Marcus]

As for the facts:

source?

You're making it seem like it was a massive battle between some 150 Palestinians, and the IDF. This is a baseless accusation, unless you have prove to back it up (and please, no IDF or Israeli sources). No paper I read reported anything like you just did. Yes there were militants, but just a mere handful. the others that were killed or wounded, actually were innocent civilians.

[Sirotnikov]

(and please, no IDF or Israeli sources).

Interesting, did you also choose to ignore official dutch sources when reading about serebrenika? (sp?)

Did you check non-american versions about Mogadishu?

Did you check non-american versions about the air raids on Iraq?

This is very ludicrous. You know very well that when you go to BBC to get information about American raids, you well get only the American side of the story, and on Israeli raids... they only give you the Palestinian side of the story.


My sources are the israeli media and people whom I personally know who serve in the IDF.

And in a year or some - I'm going to know for a fact what is up there too. Only I won't be able to tell you.

In any case - if you want to have a war crimes trial - bring it on!

It has come to my attention that almost every IDF action is being recorded on video, for several years now. Thus we can prove the integrity of our claims.

[Sirotnikov]

You're making it seem like it was a massive battle between some 150 Palestinians, and the IDF

You don't need 150 palestinians to create a battlefield.


You just have to think about the following question:

What does a crowd of 100+ innocent people has to do during a battle between IDF and Hamas militants?

Wouldn't they rather... hide from the fire?

In any case - the large number of injuries was from the falling of a piece of a building's wall. My source? video shoots of the scene.

[Saint Marcus]

Wouldn't they rather... hide from the fire?

In any case - the large number of injuries was from the falling of a piece of a building's wall. My source? video shoots of the scene.

So they may have been hiding, in/near that building that collapsed.

[Jaguar]

but wouldn't they have tried to get out of the building through a door on the other side where no fighting was occurring?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

It is almost as if the Arabs or someone were deliberately blocking Palestinian integration.

No one gives a **** about the Pals, Israeli or Arab.

Both sides are wrong in this but in many ways the Arabs seem worse to me. They claim that the Pals are their Muslim brothers, but then they continue to let the Pals live in squalid refugee camps for cynical reasons. The Pals are just a tool in the eyes of the Arab states, a tool to be used to weaken Israel. Israel's treatment of the Pals isn't any better, but at least the Pals are an enemy of Israel. The Arabs claim that the Pals are their friends, but they still continue to oppress them. With "friends" like these, who needs enemies? Unfortunately, the Pals have both...

Damn right Drake: The neighboring Arab states, specially Syria and Lebanon treat the Palestinians horribly, as do the Gulf Sates. This is also why I never refer to the current conflict as Arab-Israeli but Israel-Palestinian. for all the hubub, the Egyptians, Saudis, Syrians, Iraqis and so forth are really barely involved- even in sending money to Hamas their influence is, as should be based on their treatment of the Pals, minimal, unlike what so many Israelis on the irght want- so that it becomes Arabs v Israel, not Palsetinians v Israel.

[Ned]

Well GePap, in other words, the Arabs are blocking integration of the Palestinians into their societies. How they do this? Deny citizenship/work permits/jobs/right to buy land/the right to live out of the camps? How?

[CyberGnu]

Ned, they are not actually blocking intergration, they just wont actively support it.

Actively supporting intergration would entail giving away land, houses, social services etc etc to the refugees. There is, AFAIK, no practical obstacle for a refugee to settle in jordan, as long as he can afford it.

There is quite a bit of mobility in the camps, as well. People who do well move out, while poor move in. See, for example, this norwegian study:

http://www.fafo.no/ais/middeast/jordan/refugees/AmmanRWG.pdf

This aspect has always baffled. Why is the arab world vilefied because they wont pay for Israels crimes?

Let's say that the US decides to drive all blacks over the border to Mexico. Should we not only expect Mexico to shoulder the burden of integrating them into mexican society, but even accuse Mexico of a crime if it doesn't?

It seems absurd to me...