Native American Empire

[Caligastia]

Imran-
As Ethelred said, there are many examples of other cultures and races destroying their environment. A perfect example are the Maori in New Zealand. Liberals get all dewy-eyed about their respect for nature, but the reality is they hunted the Moa and other native species to extinction. They could easily have just taken what they needed for food, but because the Moa was an easy target they would hunt it for sport.

[MrFun]

double post

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

However, they probably never would have industrialized. It's peculiar to Europeans. Europeans are the only culture in the world which thought they were above nature. Everyone else wanted to live with nature and thus industrialization doesn't work in that mindset.

What a lame thesis -- and I don't care if it comes from a lefty professor.

First off, even though it's not an example of industrialization, this certainly shows how Amerindians of eastern North America changed, in respects towards nature:

When the fur trade increased in the 18th century, many Amerindian chiefdoms turned to killing thousands of beavers, rabbits, and deer for skin and fur.
This is the opposite of what you have stated -- it shows that Amerindians are capable of environmental destruction for economic gain, just as Europeans have been.

And the huge cities of various Amerindian civilizations, as well as that of early China shows urbanization in some areas, which also shows a disconnection with nature.

[SlowwHand]

"Amerindian" ?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by MrFun
And the huge cities of various Amerindian civilizations, as well as that of early China shows urbanization in some areas, which also shows a disconnection with nature.

That reminds me of another good example of disrespect for nature exhibited by non-whites. The construction of the pyramids in central america required the deforestation of many acres of land. We see them surrounded and overgrown by forest today, but when they were built there wouldnt have been a tree in sight.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
"Amerindian" ?

Whats that? A penis-head smiley?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Frogger
Exactly...

Europe's strength lay in its disunity, and the scientific/industrial revolution was in major part caused by the backlash against a thousand years of stagnation caused by scholasticism and dogmatism.

Men like Bacon had the benefit of being able to look back and see how much casting off these shackles had helped...and they then went the rest of the way.

Frogger, this undoubtedly correct. The huge backlash that was the Protestant reformation also brought out intellectual curiosity in areas other than religion.

The development of a patent system also helped. Patents first began in Venice, spread to Germany (HRE) and then to England and from there to the United States. Industrialization follows the same pattern.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
As for overgrazing, if you don't know that that is going to cause problems (because the idea that grass will always be there), then it isn't really because you have no respect for nature, you just don't know any better.

Thats part of the point. It doesn't matter about your intentions if you destroy the environment anyway.

Now you are being ignorant. The sea trade made Europe a little better, but they were still nothing to the Arabs, Chinese, and Indians. It wasn't until pre-Industrial economics that Europe shined vis-a-vis the East, which was MUCH more advanced until the 1700s.

Well someone is being ignorant about sea trade. Isn't me.

Sea trade not only strengthened the European economy it damaged the Arab economy. Trade that had previously gone through the Silk Road and Ishtanbul after the Turks took Constantinople started to come direct to Europe by ship. The earliest manufacuring plant in England wasn't a texitile mill. It was for making blocks and pulleys for the new ships they were using then to decrease the number of sailors needed to handle a cargo ship.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Whats that? A penis-head smiley?

Nah, Slowhand's just showing us he's an a-hole.

As for the sea-trade thing, one must remember that the Portugese actively destroyed Arab, Turksih, and Indian shipping in the Indian ocean. Portugese piracy gave them a monopoly on Indian ocean shipping. That's what spelled the end of the Ottoman Empire.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Whats that? A penis-head smiley?

If Slowwhand was to offer me his penis or ass to play with, I will get as far away from him as possible.


Who knows what would happened had Amerindian chiefdoms of eastern North America found a more viable, environmentally sound way to capitalize on the fur trade with Europeans??

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Nah, Slowhand's just showing us he's an a-hole.

As for the sea-trade thing, one must remember that the Portugese actively destroyed Arab, Turksih, and Indian shipping in the Indian ocean. Portugese piracy gave them a monopoly on Indian ocean shipping. That's what spelled the end of the Ottoman Empire.

It is interesting how the worm turns. Once it was Arab piracy in the Medditerranean that help throw Europe back into a dark age after a minor comeback during the age of Charlemagne.

War, piracy and pestilence. The three pillars of anarchy.

[Capt Dizle]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I will not let that stop me from advancing a theory.

Horses originated in North America and spread southward into South American and then into Asia by the ancient land bridge (Atlantis territory maybe )

Horses became extinct in the Americas due to a subsequent ice. I theorize that other forms of animals that were suitable to domesticate were also wiped out by that ice age. As a result American natives did not have a crucial resource at hand. The wheel was not invented or not utilized due to simply not having animals to pull wagons.

Therefore, development of the civilizations of the Americas was stunted by the effect of the ice age.

The fact that the Plains Indians quickly adapted to a wholy different form of life after the reintroduction of horses by the Spanish clearly shows that native Americans had the capability to evolve. Absent the effects of the ice age and the introduction of foreign disease into the Americas there is a high likelyhood that civilization would have advanced on a par with development elsewhere.

Thats the jimmytrick theory of how the west was won and the USA became the dominant people of the modern world.

[Boris Godunov]

jimmy, do you have a theory about brontosauruses too?

[Ethelred]

Me first.

The are very small at one end the get VERY BIG IN THE MIDDLE and then get small again at the other end.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
jimmy, do you have a theory about brontosauruses too?

You dirty rotten threadjacker.