Why did both Napoleon and Hitler fail to defeat Russia?

[Tolls]

True...he (like Turkey really...) wanted nothing to do with it all...

[Bereta_Eder]

Exactly

Too bad we were forced into this bloodmayhem of yours(=englandgermanyfrance whatever) of course.

[Tolls]

Blame the Italians (in your case, anyway)...

[Bereta_Eder]

who could blame musollini?

the guy was so pathetic and ridiculous you could only feel laughter and pity for him

the grandfather of one of my friends has a cat he has named musolini

[Bereta_Eder]

we are talking abpout blaming people who actually do have a brain

[Bereta_Eder]

And my own grandfather helped an italian escape execution from the Germans. I can hold no grudges against The Italianos, I love them

[Lancer]

I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned...

The Germans were greeted as liberators in Russia and particularly the Ukraine by people sick of Stalin and his reforms. Had these people gotten support or at least decent treatment the Germans could have raised many divisions to fight the Sovs. Instead the SS came on the heals of the onrushing divisions and started doing what they do, murder, torture, rounding people up. Hell, some Nazi party bigshot, I forget who, actually gave a speach in Kiev in front of an eager crowd and told them they were all inferior subhumans! How to make friends and influence people, right? Before you know it partisans were all over German supply. The Germans couldn't possibly gaurd the railroad tracks in the endless steppe, but the tried and the effort detracted from the front.
Germans lost because they are Germans.

[Az]

errm, you're generalizing, Lancer. SOME people were happy about the fact that Hitler 'liberated' them, esp. many people in the baltic states, and east poland that was just annexed to the SU. but most people were very loyal to the Soviet government, esp. in Russia.

[Ozz]

Originally posted by Azazel
but most people were very loyal to the Soviet government, esp. in Russia.

Loyal or afraid? The germans stupidity gave the Russians no choice in their loyality. The other peoples of the USSR could and did serve, especially when german manpower began running low (Cossack calvary, the atlantic wall troops were from the USSR etc.)

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Geramny had to divert troops to Greece because Italy failed to capture Greece.

That slowed the invasion of Germany to Russia.

The invasion of the USSR wasn't delayed even by a single hour. It went off at the day and the hour planned for it to happen. The Balkan diversion delayed nothing.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ozz
Loyal or afraid?

Both. While the peasants (who were still in the majority) had been royally screwed by Stalin, the people living in the cities had seen a massive increase in their standard of living. It's not for no reason that even today Stalin has millions of followers in the former USSR.

Ukrainian nationalists joined up with the Nazis, and IIRC, the first massacre at Baba Yar was actually carried out by Ukrainians, not the SS.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


The invasion of the USSR wasn't delayed even by a single hour. It went off at the day and the hour planned for it to happen. The Balkan diversion delayed nothing.

No. This is blatantly wrong. Not to mention the amount of troops diverted to do something Italy started but couldn't do.

[GePap]

The Winter of 1812 was incredibly MILD for Russian winters: in retelling the great difficulties of the Grand Armee retreating, we get at least one description of great suffereing as many men drowned, or were left on the wrong bank when the ice over one major broke under the retreating army: the ice was weak due to the mildness of the winter. Napoleon made many mistakes. his army could have sat in moscow th whole mild winter and survived to campaign the next. Why he decided not to sit in Moscow, I cant tell, but it was a terrible mistake for his army.

[DarthVeda]

I thought it had something to do with the Russians

[Tolls]

"Why he decided not to sit in Moscow, I cant tell, but it was a terrible mistake for his army."

I believe he had insufficient supplies to last out in Moscow for the winter months...there was no way of getting supplies to him, and he didn't trust his allies to remain allies (Prussia and Austria) for those winter months. So all in all logistically and politically he felt it unwise to spend 3 or 4 months tied up in Moscow.

Indeed, his flanking forces were also disintegrating under Russian pressure on the northern flank at least (and probably the southern as well) and it is unlikely they would have survived another 3 months holding out there...so come the spring he would have had a half starved army in Moscow, completely cut off from Poland.