Welcome to NATO!

[DanS]

"If such a move (I mean NATO expansion) noticeably decreases security of one of the parties (Russia), then the wording 'extreme and permanent' is not quite appropriate even in relation to Lithuania."

What makes you think that this decreases the security of Russia?

[Bereta_Eder]

i hate to say it but NATO provides stability.

at the same time though is a vehicle of US interests.

That's why it must be abolished and replaced by a euro only institution of the same focus.

I'm not against adopting any possible good things that can be american. i'm not british.

[Imran Siddiqui]

That's why the thing about "democracies don't fight each other" is ****.

Then how come they've never fought and its the closest thing to a law in IR?

[DinoDoc]

Pollyannish reasoning?

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Then how come they've never fought and its the closest thing to a law in IR?

That's because all of the important modern democracies (US, EU, Japan etc) are allied to each other. In addition, a lot of them have nukes and are afraid to use it on anyone (India comes to mind). That's what keeps the peace. "Democracy" helps, but it isn't the key deciding factor.

If we had democratic elections in both Israel and Palestine tomorrow, the war would continue anyway.

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Neither of the regimes you listed count as democratic by any reasonable definition.

They were pushed into power, however, by popular support. That's precisely what democracy is about.

The truth is, nations usually fight wars with massive popular support, or else it becomes very hard to fight it. The popular support derives from demogogues swaying the masses, and nothing in democracy prevents that, at all.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
They were pushed into power, however, by popular support. That's precisely what democracy is about.

If you are going to point out an instance of democracies warring, at least pick a good one and mention Finland during WWII.

[DanS]

The truth is, nothing in "democracy" itself prevents wars from happening.

While true, the predominate balance in democracies is in favor of peace among democracies. In this instance, and even though I don't believe it, you could credibly say that the exceptions prove the rule.

"That's because all of the important modern democracies (US, EU, Japan etc) are allied to each other."

Do you think this is a coincidence?

Anyway, I would include India among the important modern democracies. Or at least a democracy of budding importance.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by DanS

"That's because all of the important modern democracies (US, EU, Japan etc) are allied to each other."

Do you think this is a coincidence?

Yes.
US, UK and France were traditional allies against the German threat. After WW2, they built Germany and Japan into clones of themselves, which then became rich, dependent, and eternally grateful. This is pretty much why all of the important democracies are allied. An accident of history.

Anyway, I would include India among the important modern democracies. Or at least a democracy of budding importance.

India has had its fair share of international disputes. The only reason why it didn't erupt into war with Pakistan recently was in fear of Pakistani nukes.

Thus, nothing in the Indian democratic system is preventing xenophobia and belligerence. Whether or not Pakistan is a democracy really isn't a factor.

Of course, there's also the case of Israel and Palestine - 2 populations willingly devoted to fighting each other. I doubt democracy would help much in this case - it might even put demagogues into power and make the situation worse.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by ranskaldan



What ultimately prevents war isn't democracy. It is a well-off, well-educated middle class population, whether or not they happen to live in a democracy or dictatorship.

I'm sure that would be news to the Iraqis in 1980...right before they went to war with Iran (which didn't have that shabby of a well-educated middle class either)

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Lonestar



I'm sure that would be news to the Iraqis in 1980...right before they went to war with Iran (which didn't have that shabby of a well-educated middle class either)

My point hasn't been that dictatorships can keep themselves from war; my point is that democracies can't.

A strong, well-developed middle class helps in preventing war, since a country or people with too much to lose won't risk losing it. But that is by no means a bulletproof guard against war. A nation will rise to defend itself from threats, real or perceived. Germany, after all, rose to defend itself against a falsely perceived Jewish and Slavic threat, and paid dearly for it.

(Hitler himself may have started the war for personal ambitions; but he could never have done it alone. His manipulation of the German people was based on the so-called "Slavic and Jewish threat", and the Germans believed this demagogue and followed him to war.)

Note that democracy doesn't come into the equation. Demagogues, as I have showed, help speed wars along, and democracy is a system of demagogues trying to both please the populace and keep each other in check. This doesn't always work out. Sometimes the population - especially an angry one - wants war, and the demagogues will go along, helping the vicious cycle feed itself.

[VetLegion]

NATO U BLATO!

BOLJE ZLATO NEGO NATO

btw, slovenians have anti-NATO page, designed same as government page. Here is link to the graffiti page (in slovenian)

http://www.ruleless.com/cgi-bin/rull.exe?a=2&b=1&design=nato

some are a good laugh

Nas in Amerikancev je 272 milijonov!
dr. Dimitrij

translation: us and americans 272 million!

[DanS]

272 million?

More like 292 million.

[Cybergod]

Of course, when Slovenia contributes just 2 million to that number

Some slovenian quotes:

NADOBUDNE ATOMSKE TANGICE

NATO=naval ameriških teenagerskih opic

What about this one:

EU = EKONOMSKO UNIÈENJE

NATO
||
NOVA
AMERIŠKA
TERORISTIÈNA
ORGANIZACIJA

PS. This being my 500th post, I should be able to use my custom avatar... I hope

[Cybergod]

looks above

That would be: Nova Americka Teroristicka Organizacija in Serbo-Croat

[VetLegion]

272 million?

More like 292 million.

yeah, but you get the joke

PS. This being my 500th post, I should be able to use my custom avatar... I hope

posts in the OT dont count anymore