Should the UN have its own military?

[Garth Vader]

It was MacArthur racing through North Korea(without authorization) that brought the Chinese in to that war.

[MichaeltheGreat]

MacArthur was also wilfully blind to the capabilities of his enemy, and a grossly overrated tactician who managed to get credit for the successes of subordinates and shift blame to anyone convenient.

His mismanagement in SWPOA during WWII (wrt Fertig in particular, but also his reticence in coordination and communication with Pac fleet and Nimitz) should have seen him retired. Ethically, his trying to shaft Wainwright for failures in the Philippines defense when Wainwright was both a subordinate and a POW should have been a careeer-ender, but Mac was the darling boy of the far right, and too politically volatile to be touched.

Ned Almond's sole qualification for being an independent commander in Korea was being one of MacArthur's "boys" - between Almond and MacArther, they almost gave away the 1st Marines entirely, with orders which were utterly insane. The only thing which kept the 1st Marines from being overrun piecmeal was the division commander's (Maj. Gen. Oliver P. Smith) silent disobedience of marching orders that would have fatally split his division into separate elements too far apart to ever rejoin or support each other.

MacArthur didn't act without consultation because he had to act, he did it because he considered that consultation with political types was meddling in his command.

That type of prima-donna professional officer is not tolerated in most modern militaries, so his case is an anomoly, but there has to be a strict balance between giving commanders scope for independent action and maintaining overall political control of the mission. That's what the UN needs to work out on a standardized basis, because otherwise, it doesn't matter who has the troops.

Rwanda was a failure of UN bureacracy, not an argument for a UN military force.

[Ned]

My dad served under MacArthur and had nothing but great praise for his leadership. My dad was there from Guadalcanal to Bataan. He said that what distinguished MacArthur from other commanders was two things: First he planned his campaign to achieve his objectives with minimal lose of human life (something we take as a given in modern warfare, but not then); second, he personally conducted reconnaissance which gave him a much better feel for the situation on the ground than other rear-guard generals.

I don't know much about Almond's and MacArthur's orders concerning the Marines in Korea. This is highly uncharacteristic of the man if he ordered them to do something which was insane. (Maybe Almond interferred with MacArthur's call by misrepresenting the battlefied situation.)

As to "racing through North Korea" without orders, did anyone tell him to simply stop at the 38th Parallel or stop at the 39th even?

[Garth Vader]

As to "racing through North Korea" without orders, did anyone tell him to simply stop at the 38th Parallel or stop at the 39th even?

Yes. Didn't stop him.

[Bosh]

But for the officer to have any degree of competence, he would necessarily have to be Russian

Us russians have a lot of endearing qualities, but competance definately isn't one of them

[David Floyd]

My dad served under MacArthur and had nothing but great praise for his leadership. My dad was there from Guadalcanal to Bataan.

Actually, Guadalcanal was not under MacArthur's command at all. It was under first Robert Ghormley's and then William Halsey's.

Although MacArthur did graciously allow a couple of "his" aircraft to operate in defense of the US Marines and Army troops once.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned


I don't know much about Almond's and MacArthur's orders concerning the Marines in Korea. This is highly uncharacteristic of the man if he ordered them to do something which was insane. (Maybe Almond interferred with MacArthur's call by misrepresenting the battlefied situation.)

MacArthur's plan assumed that there would be no opposition, and had each of the Marine regiments attacking along a different axis, along single narrow roads in mountain passes. Since the plan was a nominal encirclement, MacArthur planned to "complete" the "encirclement" by having one regiment detached completely and move to the west to link up with where 8th Army was supposed to show up - without any means of communication, and no possibility of support, and with no supply lines at all. The other two Marine regiments were also to advance on different axes which would take them out of mutual support and communications range.

These orders were repeated several times, despite both 1st MarDiv and 31/7 ID (USA) reports of contact with at elements of at least 5 PLA divisions. General Smith couldn't overtly disobey these orders, but he could and he was extremely slow and plodding in carrying them out, so that when the **** hit the fan, he was in position to turn his regiments around and fight their way back to each other.

Forensic teams are still recovering the bodies of fallen Marines who were buried in field graves and left behind.

[Ned]

MTG, et al., I just did a quick search and found that MacArthur was given permission to attack into NK on October 6. The Chinese entered the war drove the UN force back from the Yalu, but in doing so, disguised their strength. MacArthur was unaware of their true strength when he ordered the attack North on Nov. 23.

So a lot of what was said here about MacArthur seems to be at variance with the facts, at least those I could discover on the Web.

I also found it curious, since this is the first time I studied the matter, that the idea of not attacking Chinese bases in Manchuria was Atlee's, not Truman's. Perhaps I should relent a bit on my dislike for Harry.

[SKILORD]

No they have too damm much influence as it is. This is as stupid an idea as that court they have.

[Q Classic]

Actually MacArthur is the perfect example of who NOT to have on a peace-keeping mission. Because of him, and him almost alone, the war dragged on for another two years, gaining neither side anything and resulting in millions more casualties and the desolation of the Korean peninsular, as well as destroying any possibility of freindly relations between the US and the PRC.

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ok, see, maybe you're fine with the idea that if all of korea became stalinist under kim il sung, but i'm not.

without macarthur, all of korea would be a starving hellhole, part of bush's stupid "axis of evil". without him, all of korea would be bankrupt, its economy frozen. without him, i'd be stuck in a third-rate pos country.

no, i like macarthur and his style of "peacekeeping". if anything, i'm peeved that truman didn't regain his balls after nuking japan-- he should have let macarthur do the same to the legions of mao troops in china.

[Ned]

Q Cubed, I think Truman was undermined by Atlee who was conducting separate negotiations with the Chinese and convinced Truman to suspend bombing inside Manchuria.

MacArthur got caught up in this and got fired. But I agree with you, without his rapid action at the beginning (before receiving orders), and his brilliant leadership thereafter, Korea would have been lost.

MacArthur appears to be the perfect example of the Peacekeeper commander who reacts to a situation in an appropriate manner without having to get SC approval. Regardless, the UN later endorsed his actions.

[Q Classic]

yeah, macarthur didn't exactly know how to tactfully back down. ah, well.

as for the UN endorsing his actions... Korea happened to be the first--and only--time that the UN has fought in any war as a banner.

[KrazyHorse]

MacArthur appears to be the perfect example of the Peacekeeper commander who reacts to a situation in an appropriate manner without having to get SC approval. Regardless, the UN later endorsed his actions

MacArthur wanted to bomb selected cities and stategic routes in the PR of ****ing China with nuclear weapons (a total of about 2 dozen). Truman, luckily, was not as mindbogglingly insane or megalomaniacal as good old Dugout Doug, and nixed the idea. Such men should be kept as far away from power as possible, not rewarded for their oh-so-dashing style without substance.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Frogger

MacArthur appears to be the perfect example of the Peacekeeper commander who reacts to a situation in an appropriate manner without having to get SC approval. Regardless, the UN later endorsed his actions

MacArthur wanted to bomb selected cities and stategic routes in the PR of ****ing China with nuclear weapons (a total of about 2 dozen). Truman, luckily, was not as mindbogglingly insane or megalomaniacal as good old Dugout Doug, and nixed the idea. Such men should be kept as far away from power as possible, not rewarded for their oh-so-dashing style without substance.

I don't recall his being fired over the use of nuclear weapons.

However, the point I am making concerns his actions at the very beginning of he conflict when the NK overran ROK troops. If MacArthur had waited for UN authorization before acting, all probably would have been lost. But this is the very point that Tingkai was arguing was necessary in the Rwanda situation. The commander must have flexibility to respond to aggression and to call in reinforcements.

Had the UN commanders at Rawanda or Sebrenicia had MacArthurs balls and access to reinforcements, literally millions of deaths could have been prevented.

[connorkimbro]

Because of him, and him almost alone, the war dragged on for another two years

Not exactly. MacArthur wanted to take the war farther than it needed to be taken, sure, but he certainly didn't act alone. It was not OUR war we were fighting, after all, it was South Koreas. Ultimately, they were the ones calling the shots, and THEY wanted to continue the war as well. MacArthur didn't argue with them, but his presence (well, the US forces presence) allowed the war to be continued for as long as it was.