The two faces of Islam.

[Faeelin]

So why did Christian merchants in Italy, and not Islamic merchants in Al-Andalus, turn away from religion?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Mr Fun, don't bother. Velo has already shown himself to be a moron that really can't comprehend complex issues and tries to make them as simple as possible so his small brain can handle them. It's useless to argue. It is like arguing with Giancarlo.

Let it go.

If you say so.

And you're right -- millions of Christians today, will celebrate Osama Bin Laden's death, no matter how violent his death will be.

[Lars-E]

Mr. Fun, are you saying that OBL is as guilty as the 3000 who died in WTC and women and children blown up by suicide attackers in Israel?

BTW, I would not support or like if ppl celebrated anyones death, including OBL.

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by MrFun


If you say so.

And you're right -- millions of Christians today, will celebrate Osama Bin Laden's death, no matter how violent his death will be.

Thus, the millions who celebrated Hitler's death were the equal of Himmler and the SS. Great analogy.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Lars-E
Mr. Fun, are you saying that OBL is as guilty as the 3000 who died in WTC and women and children blown up by suicide attackers in Israel?

BTW, I would not support or like if ppl celebrated anyones death, including OBL.

WTF??

Those 3,000 people who were killed were innocent civilians.

I'm not sure what you're saying.

[Lars-E]

Hell, I don't care who you are, if you are poor and uneducated, you listen to the first guy that says he can help you... and you are much more likely to scapegoat someone else.

Possible, yes. Is OBL the first guy?

The conflict in NI is all about religion. The presence of British soldiers and that NI is not "free" or part of Ireland is totally irellevant.

The fact that tutsis and hutis have been at eachothers throats before colonialism and before christianity came to to continent played no part in the massmurders. It's all about religion.

It seems that some want you to believe the two above paragraphs...

The part played here by religion would be the one played by nominal religion and tradition imo.

Regarding bombing and killing of abortion doctors:

I don't support it of course, but I can understand the reasoning behind it:

"The doctors are massmurderes with a license to kill -provided by the government". If you're already very anti-government... You would want to put a stop to this - a huge task btw...

As far as Palestinians blowing up innocent civilians in Israel I can also understand part of the reasoning:

The Jews are nothing but pigs and apes - like they are described in "the holy book", the Qur'an. Add that to other verses encouraging fighting the infidels...

[Lars-E]

WTF??

Those 3,000 people who were killed were innocent civilians.

I'm not sure what you're saying.

You were saying:

And you're right -- millions of Christians today, will celebrate Osama Bin Laden's death, no matter how violent his death will be.

[Lars-E]

Mr. Fun, seems you were comparing the death of OBL with the death of innocent ppl. That's all.

[Velociryx]

Mr Fun, the White Hate groups you mention certainly satisfy the first of the criterion, in that they have been known to blow things and people up.

But with these groups, the second condition is not satisfied.

The population at large does not celebrate these events, and is quick to punish those who act out in this manner. There is rapid and unequivocal condemnation of the act by the population at large, rather than celebration.

Unless both conditions are satisfied, the two are not comparable.

In the same vein, the IRA is composed of members of the Catholic faith....if not exclusively, then close enough to say so, and they DO bomb civilian targets, so here again, the first condition is satisfied. Again though, you see rapid condemnation of the involved parties by members of the Catholic church, and calls for peace and tolerance. If there have ever been (modern, current....I don't know about further back....it's possible, I'll admit) Papal decrees in support of the IRA's bombing activities, I have never seen them. The leaders of the faith simply do not condone the actions, nor is there any footage to be found in any of the sources I have looked, showing celebrations marking the latest successful IRA bombing. The second condition remains therefore unsatisfied.

I totally understand Imran's desire to change the focus of the argument to one of sum-total bloodletting. Since there is no modern evidence to support his position, it is clearly untentable, and only by expanding the scope to include the sum-total bloodletting of both religions does his position gain any creedance.

But that has never been my argument. I would very quickly agree that in sum-totals, Christians have, no doubt, shed more blood in the name of their God.

But I don't live 400 years ago, I live in the here and now, and in the here and now, it's not the Christians performing mass bombings in the name of their God.

To your McVeigh question, my response would be the same. Meets the first condition, but not the second. If the second condition HAD been met (if there had been a celebratory atmosphere after the bombing in Oklahoma, and if there had been no condemnation of the act), they yes, IMO it would be fair to begin raising a suspicious eye toward the larger population.

-=Vel=-

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Lars-E
Mr. Fun, seems you were comparing the death of OBL with the death of innocent ppl. That's all.

Um no -- Osama Bin Laden is not an innocent person.
He is a dangerous person, who needs to be destroyed.

[MrFun]

Velociryx -- ok, you made some good points.

But I still disagree -- Muslims in general, should not be held in suspect.

[Velociryx]

Not bad for a small-minded moron, eh? (to borrow a phrase from the ever-colorful Imran).

I realize that by supporting profiling, I place myself in a position of inherent controversy, and I will readily admit that it's not a perfect solution, however it is an *effective* solution, given that we (speaking here specificially of law enforcement and detection agencies)do not have unlimited resources. Since they must contend with budgetary constraits (as must we all), then some means is necessary to slim down the total number of people (potential terrorists) to investigate.

The most basic of investigative techniques *lends* itself to profiling. Detectives and investigators begin by looking at what factors the terrorists who have already struck have in common. Almost without fail, they're male, and generally younger. Therefore, it makes no sense to waste scarce resources investigating females. That's the most basic form of profiling, but of course there's more. Again, almost without fail, they follow the ways of Islam. So that gets added to the profile. The vast majority hail from the middle east, and so on.

If someone could point to a better, more efficient way to make use of law enforcement's scarce resources, I'd be perfectly willing to change my stance re: profiling, but as it stands, it is the most effective tool we have in terms of directing those resources.

-=Vel=-

[Az]

I think there might be something with Arab Culture, but I don't think it is inherant in that culture, but rather the problems that arose with colonialism and the whole Israel thing.

come on, Imran, you're better than that. This is a well-known excuse, not the real reason of the problems of the arab world. The arab world was generally speaking left alone, in terms of colonialism, relatively to most of the world, And Israel could only be held at some sort of "guilt" only if it could be considered guilty of giving the arab leadership an excuse to the poor conditions of the Arab world. The arab world is blinded by it's illustrious history, and its' machoistic psychology stops it from realizing the grave condition in which it is. The arab world is also guilty in most of the crimes of the "White man", prior to the 20th century, as it engaged in colonialism, slave trade, and the forceful expansion of it's main religion.

[Velociryx]

Shhh! Imran will nitpick you to death if you disagree with him, and will do so in grand Clintonian style! (I think his time in lawschool has seriously degraded his debating skills, but that's just this individual's observations). Good luck nonetheless....

-=Vel=-

[Ramo]

I'm not sure if this has already mentioned, but:

One can readily find passages in the Qur’an that exhort the faithful to fight and kill the "unbelievers," that is, to wage Jihad (Holy War). Consider, for example, Sura 2:190-191a: "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. …" (See also 2:216-218; 8:38-41; 9:5-6 & 29 etc.).

I don't know what the author is smoking, but this passage is obviously an appeal to self defense, characteristic of just about all major religions, not "killing the unbelievers."

I'd like to add that Islamism is a modern, political phenomenon. Look at the situation 40 years ago, and it simply wasn't a very prominent ideology.