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**tandeetaylor** · August 9, 2002, 16:12

Originally posted by SuperSneak

Hey, genius, if there wasn't still room for debate, how come it is still legal?

As far as the US is concerned, majority rules, right or wrong, unless specifically forbidden in the Constitution (and sometimes that doesn't matter either).

You know very well how much what is "culturally acceptable" has more of a say in the law than what is actually right and wrong. At least, I hope you do.

**SuperSneak** · August 9, 2002, 16:13

I found out today that we're having a boy, and I think this decision is very important, so I want to have as much time as possible to decide, and who better to ask than a bunch of guys (and some young women with no children)?

Jesus...one has to wonder if you guys are reading the thread yourself?!? Did I miss something here?

Regardless of your opinion, an OBGYN is imminently qualified, as they perform the procedure. Or are you under the mistaken impression that a pediatrician does that? Who's showing their lack of experience now?

My Pediatrician is pro-circumcision...but maybe it is because of her work in Africa where she has formed a first hand opinion?

The real point, Asher, is that you will not allow any ideas but your own. I have allowed that you may be right and time will tell. You base your opinion on studies and the current press release only. That is true ignorance.

**DinoDoc** · August 9, 2002, 16:13

Damn, you people are defensive about people taking knives to your willys!

**Asher** · August 9, 2002, 16:14

Originally posted by SuperSneak
Hey, genius, if there wasn't still room for debate, how come it is still legal? Like many things, it is a matter of choice.

I think you're confusing Tom and I, "genius".

Again, your own source leaves it to the parents

Very, very few people advocate banning circumcision across the nation, so of course it's up to the parents. We've already discussed this, and I've never said otherwise.

so it must not feel nearly as strongly as you do about it.

Hmm. Well, it clearly said circumcision does more harm than good and it also said it's up to the parents who may do it for religious reasons. I completely agree. How does this show who feels stronger?

A slight statistical majority, even over 28 studies means nothing...

So suddenly when people are running around screaming uncut men are more vulnerable by a "slight statistical majority" it's worth it to put a baby through intense pain and cut off his foreskin, but suddenly when a much larger sample in the United States (rather than Africa) is used, and it turns out circumcised men are "significantly" more likely to contract HIV statistically in the US, it now means nothing?

As my son did not suffer any side effects from his circumcision, the majority of arguments against it are now moot.

Yeah, your son hasn't had any problems so no one ever will.

And you're right, it probably is negligable. So we're back to square one, with zero medical benefits of circumcision (barring a medical problem ala PH), and the entire argument in favor of circumcision is once again reduced to tradition.

**tandeetaylor** · August 9, 2002, 16:16

Originally posted by SuperSneak
Jesus...one has to wonder if you guys are reading the thread yourself?!?

I was joking dumbass.

Keep reading. "Seriously though..."

**Tom31** · August 9, 2002, 16:16

Originally posted by SuperSneak
Hey, genius, if there wasn't still room for debate, how come it is still legal?

If there's still room for debate, then the legality of the operation is questionable. If you're going to operate on a child, then there isn't SUPPOSED to be room for debate, especially if the child has no medical problems to begin with.

**tandeetaylor** · August 9, 2002, 16:21

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Damn, you people are defensive about people taking knives to your willys!

I would hope so!

You're not?!

**DinoDoc** · August 9, 2002, 16:25

Originally posted by tandeetaylor
I would hope so!

You're not?!

I'm already "cut." What do I have to be defensive about?

**Tom31** · August 9, 2002, 16:26

Originally posted by Asher

so of course it's up to the parents.

Wait a minute Asher--the courts have placed limits on what parents can do to a child. In Canada, the Supreme Court has ruled that parents cannot consent to surgery on a child unless the surgery is MEDICALLY NECESSARY. Routine circumcision doesn't clear the bar. In the US, the legality of infant circumcision is at best a gray area. I believe a number of American legal experts have argued that infant circumcision is illegal under current laws.

**Asher** · August 9, 2002, 16:30

Tom: I'm not going to debate this with you, but the argument of freedom of religion mucks the whole thing up. I don't care if people do it for religious reasons, I care if they do it on misinformed medical reasons or peer pressure/"tradition".

I'm already "cut." What do I have to be defensive about?

Not to state the obvious, but:
We're uncut, we CAN be cut if we wanted to, we do not want to.

You're cut, it's impossible to get fully "uncut" again (the operation is a cheap "kludge" type thing which doesn't restore the nerves, etc).

From there it should be obvious why the "cut" people would be so defensive. "I'm fine, it's fine, there's nothing wrong with it -- I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine" (I think I can I think I can I think I can...)

**Bereta_Eder** · August 9, 2002, 16:32

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'm already "cut." What do I have to be defensive about?

The fact that you're mutilated and you must prove that it's ok?

**tandeetaylor** · August 9, 2002, 16:34

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'm already "cut." What do I have to be defensive about?

Well, you're saying, why would you be defensive about a knife to the sensitive member, and I'm saying, I think you would be too, no matter what the circumstances.

Are you telling me that it's OK for someone to take a knife to you?

(regardless of whether you already have had it taken to you)

I was just joking.

**DinoDoc** · August 9, 2002, 16:40

Originally posted by paiktis22
The fact that you're mutilated and you must prove that it's ok?

Why should I? I don't care and I haven't noticied any negative effects. I'm just here to be in awe of people about to restart a major flamewar over something so seemingly insignifigant, especially in light of the fact that tandee's decision is already made.

**Asher** · August 9, 2002, 16:42

Nobody is flaming. Sneak is in here trying to rationalize his decision now and defend it, and that keeps fueling the discussion because it's so tempting to respond to his silly comments.

**tandeetaylor** · August 9, 2002, 16:43

Originally posted by SuperSneak
Regardless of your opinion, an OBGYN is imminently qualified, as they perform the procedure. Or are you under the mistaken impression that a pediatrician does that? Who's showing their lack of experience now?

Well, I don't know about your particular circumstances, but my OBGYN doesn't do them, and the pediatrician group does.

My Pediatrician is pro-circumcision...but maybe it is because of her work in Africa where she has formed a first hand opinion?

Well, things that are right for Africans are not necessarily right for Americans. If you possess a computer and are here on this forum, you're probably about a million times more likely to have the means of proper hygiene than the people she was working with.

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