Hiroshima Remembered.

[Bosh]

Boris that is your opinion but this is the one I hold. Truman in my opinion did not have a choice.

Aaaaah Bald Assertion Man at his finest, he wafts above the need to back up any of his statements like a cool breeze blowing away the mists of rational arguement.

those things ALONE make it so that the Japanese deserved some sort of karmic punishment.

I suppose the Russian civilians deserved all the horror they went through in WW II becuase of Stalin's crimes as well then

Different situation, but it holds that the survival of the Emperor was not a negotiated condition, but rather something that the Allies gave to the Japanese in a gesture of magnamity

Real sickening piece of Machiavellianism if this was the case...

the outrage by the Americans over the Lusitania disaster in 1915? Certainly that should have been expected as just a part of war.

Especially since it WAS transporting war material to the allies.

because they were both extremely important nodes (and production centers) for the Army and Navy of the Imperial Japanese Forces.

Really? I thought the main criterion was that they were one of the few cities that hadn't already been pretty thorougly bombed, but then my grasp of WW II history isn't the best.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

i didn't say those civilians deserved it per se. i said the japanese people as a whole deserved it through karma. i think that the horrors of the atomic weapons could have been avoided-- but the fact that they weren't is something that we have to deal with.
how can you punish the tens of thousands of troops who occupied korea and nanking? the logistics of it all are mindboggling.

i'm not denying that the hiroshima and nagasaki were appalling. all i'm saying is that they don't deserve as much pity and grief as they seem to want.



neither am i exculpating the americans for using those bombs. their moral advantage from germany was lost on those two days. but that doesn't change the fact that japan as a nation did deserve such treatment.

Actually the Japanese Millitary deserved it. The Japanese people were lie to so much, they really did not know what was going on.

[joseph1944]

I will remember Pearl Harbor instead.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by rah



If you include a meage 6 hours of sleep and and hour to eat/hygene per day, that works out to a new man every 8.5 minutes. Somehow, I think that's a bit of an exageration.

Rich

In Hawaii the whole fleet was served by about 200 prostitutes. The time was three minutes. Three dollars for three minutes. The girls made a lot of money as they were not slaves and it can't be compared to the comfort girl victims. I mention it only to show that it may not be an exaggeration considering what the pros did willingly in Hawaii.

One of the various war-history-testosterone channels covered the Hawaiin situation in a one hour show last month. I think it was the History Channel but they run together for me.

[Ramo]

There was no reason why the US should've insisted on an unconditional surrender in the removal of the Emperor (and then giving him back his title ). An example of killing a couple hundred thousand people over pride.

To achieve unconditional surrender, the US should've had a demonstration, with Japanese observers, of an atomic bomb. It's hard to imagine that the Japanese would continue fighting afterwards.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Q Cubed


http://www.u.arizona.edu/~kari/rosie.htm

That was what I just talked about EXCEPT you managed to make it look like they were talking about Japan. That was Hawaii. US Navy and all. The girls weren't slaves there.

[Ethelred]

I just took another look at that site. Its not your fault Q Cubed except that you didn't look close enough. It looks to be a typo. See the paragraph right below the one you posted.

The Japanese Imperial Army in WWII recruited military prostitutes from Korea. In order to justify the expense, the "women" (girls as young as twelve) were stripped of their ideels serviced up to 250,000 men per month (Bailey 54). Each woman, therefore, had a quota of servicing100 men per day (each man was allotted only three minutes) (60). And, when they tried to raise the price of the three minutes from $3 to $5, the head of the Military Police reprimanded the prostitutes, saying, "the price of meat is still $3."

The risk of sexually transmitted disease was extremely high for Hawaiian prostitutes. ("in 1943, 120 prostitutes were hospitalized 166 times for a contagious venels serviced up to 250,000 men per month (Bailey 54). Each woman, therefore, had a quota of servicing100 men per day (each man was allotted only three minutes) (60). And, when they tried to raise the price of the three minutes from $3 to $5, the head of the Military Police reprimanded the prostitutes, saying, "the price of meat is still $3."

Take a look at the second half of each paragraph. They are identical. Someone goofed. The $3 part should have made you look twice though. The Japanes Imerial Army using dollars? I don't think so. That was price in Hawaii. The quote is from Hawaii as well.

[Q Classic]

hm... that is true. but no doubt, tomorrow when i have fast inet again, i'll find different sources. most of the sites i visited which did not give stats on time length and who to service, almost all invariably said that the asian comfort women were not paid anything at all at first.

[KrazyHorse]

Re: Hiroshima Remembered.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
57 years ago, the city of Hiroshima was hit by the only use of an atomic weapon against an enemy target in history. Over 220,000 deaths are attributed to the dropping of the atomic bomb on the city and its aftermath

The people of Nagasaki might disagree.

[MOBIUS]

I'm with Ramo on this, the first should have been a demonstration somewhere away from a large civilian city from which the high command could have been given an ultimatum...

If they failed to comply THEN bomb something bigger...

Also, IIRC the Japanese weren't given enough time between the first and second bombs to surrender, such was the state of their communications.

Also Q Cubed, the Japanese civilians on the most part knew nothing of what was going on except the propaganda that they were being continuously fed about the 'US aggressors' etc. The 'government' was effectively a military coup orchestrated by the likes of Tojo and his cronies...

This bullsh*t about the civilians not stopping what was happening is wrong on so many levels, not level because of Japanese 'etiquette' and social values - but also because they would have been killed.

The bombs were not necessary, maybe as a show of force - but nothing more!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
maybe as a show of force - but nothing more!

What do you call firebombing thier cities? A love tap.

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Hiroshima Remembered.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
57 years ago, the city of Hiroshima was hit by the only use of an atomic weapon against an enemy target in history. Over 220,000 deaths are attributed to the dropping of the atomic bomb on the city and its aftermath.

Compared to the 20 million casualties in China alone that is peanuts. The IJA also caused lots of direct and indirect deaths in Korea and other occupied areas. Remember the Bridge over River Kwai?

Not that the event itself is not a tragedy, but it must be considered in context.

I am with Q Cubed. The only bad thing about this is innocents were killed yet the guilty escaped unscathed. Hirohito is who I am referring.

To me it is a travesty of justice that somehow Japan is pretending to be a victim.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

- Dwight D. Eisenhower, "Ike on Ike," Newsweek, 11/11/63

I am not sure about that. IIRC, the US prepared Operation Olympus and Operation Crown for the invasion of of Japan itself. The estimated casualties run in the millions for the US military alone. There would be several times more on the Japanese side, from all the firebombings, blockades, and what have you.

[KrazyHorse]

At leastthe bombings ended up accomplishing something. The bombings of German cities earlier on had similar death tolls but fewer results...

[KrazyHorse]

The estimated casualties run in the millions for the US military alone

That figure is wildly inflated.

[Q Classic]

Also Q Cubed, the Japanese civilians on the most part knew nothing of what was going on except the propaganda that they were being continuously fed about the 'US aggressors' etc. The 'government' was effectively a military coup orchestrated by the likes of Tojo and his cronies...

This bullsh*t about the civilians not stopping what was happening is wrong on so many levels, not level because of Japanese 'etiquette' and social values - but also because they would have been killed.

that claim holds about as much credit as the notion that the germans did not have at least some notion that there was a holocaust going on.

why? if you look all throughout history, you'll see there is no love lost between japan and korea. indeed, the occupation of korea was greeted with much rejoicing in japan, and no doubt a lot of the japanese attitudes at the time were that of korean inferiority. korean laborers in japan were often given cruel treatment--and often in civilian centers. and yet you expect me to believe that the japanese had no inkling of what was going on?

i can buy the fact that maybe the japanese populace didn't know the true extent of the horrors. but if you expect me to believe that the japanese were completely ignorant of what was going on...